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Confused with Refs authority over concussions/clock mgmt

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Confused with Refs authority over concussions/clock mgmt Empty Confused with Refs authority over concussions/clock mgmt

Post by Ace70 2/3/2013, 12:24 pm

I was at a HS game on Friday night and the ref benched a player after he scored his second goal of the night,a header off a long cross. The ref looked at him and "determined" that he had a concussion. The player then went and saw the trainer/doctor and they determined that he was totally fine and cleared to play. The ref refused to allow the player to come back into the game. Obviously the player and the coach went ballistic however he refused to let him back in the game. Can the ref over rule a team trainer/doctor when it is determined that he is fine to continue to play?

Also, what is the rule on stopping the clock? At least 5 times the ref stopped the clock when the "favorites" were down in score(at one point down 3 goals) when giving the "favorites" a free kick, from 30 seconds to a over minute. Once they took the lead he only stopped it one time for a 30 second injury.

Obiviously there was a huge disparity in how the ref was calling the game as the underdogs received 7 yellow cards and two red cards and the other team ... got NONE

The obvious biasness of the center ref in this game was so bad it was almost comical. Luckily the the entire game was video taped and is being sent into the UIL.

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Post by nearpost95 2/3/2013, 4:21 pm

Section 3 Article 1.c.3 of NFHS Soccer Manual
"Any player who exhibits signs, symptoms, or behaviors consistent with a concussion (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion, or balance problems) shall be immediately removed from the contest and shall not return to play until cleared by an appropriate health-care professional."

What is an "appropriate health care professional"? Won't be a student trainer. Can be the official team trainer, since he/she must be trained for concussion management by state law.

The referee has wide latitude in dealing with head injuries. Referees generally do not have medical training, but if the player appears injured, in the opinion of the referee, then the player is to be removed from the field.

Check the position paper "Suggested Guidelines for the Management of Concussions in Sports" listed under:
http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=5786


Referee is to stop the clock after a goal, issuance of yellow/red cards, penalty kick, injuries. Ref has discretion to stop clock for time-wasting tactics, including repetitive substitutions.

Stopping the clock for a free kick (other than a penalty kick) is inappropriate unless a card was issued for any reason, including the defending team kicks the ball away or delays the restart in some other way.





Last edited by nearpost95 on 2/3/2013, 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)

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Post by PG-Boy 2/3/2013, 9:46 pm

Nearpost95… you believe your post? Perhaps Nearpost was the ref?

Everyone knows to shoot to the FAR post!

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Post by nearpost95 2/3/2013, 10:37 pm

Referee? yes That game? no - I have an alibi... just stating our guidelines and rules.

"farpost" was taken. Very Happy

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Post by Refmike 2/5/2013, 12:22 pm

PG-Boy wrote:Nearpost95… you believe your post? Perhaps Nearpost was the ref?

Everyone knows to shoot to the FAR post!


PG B, what is your problem with the answers to quesions that were asked? I understand Ace was looking for people to agree with him/her, but he/she did ask. I did not think they were rhetorical, either. As far as a player returning to a game after he/she is adjuged to have a concussion, a written medical release msut be available to give to present to the referee befoer the player may return to t efield, either tath night or the next game.
As far as sending videos to the UIL, the best thing they can do is use them as training tapes.
Ace, when was the game, and who were the teams. Do not ahve to say who won or lost.
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Post by PG-Boy 2/5/2013, 12:41 pm

There was no issue with the question posed. Had the post ended with just the concussion aspect, its a clear-cut case of the referee protecting the safety of the player. Slam-dunk. I would be 100% in agreement with the referees decision as a coach, parent or player.

However, as the post continued, there seemed to be multiple instances of examples of the referee influencing the outcome of the game.

NearPost95s reply addressed the concussion. He had a valid reference to the rule/law that allows a referee to make a call on the possible concussion. Fair. Tongue-in-cheek I intimated that he was the referee in the game. Just in jest, nothing that should be construed as him actually being the referee in question. Hopefully folks could see right through the jest.

A cynic would see this:
- Referee unnecessarily benches the best offensive player
- Referee ensures the player is unable to return to help his team
- Usually the LOSING team earns in ordinate amount of cards due to frustration and anger, not the WINNING team. So why is the winning team earning so many cards? Possibly time-wasting. The poster doesn't indicate if the cards were evenly distributed through-out the game or skewed towards the waning minutes of the match.

Anyone that's ever played a game away from home has encountered biased referees in their playing lifetime. Referees are human. They are just as apt to be biased as the general population. This is the reason why neutral referee crews are used in international play. I'm just agreeing with the original poster.

Solution?
He's doing the right thing by using the due process in place to deal with such situations. It won't change the outcome. But perhaps if the referee in question is deemed biased, he can be kept from helping the home team again, in the future.

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Post by Guest 2/5/2013, 12:54 pm

So was the ref a doctor? Are refs required to get certified to properly diagnose head injuries? Awesome! !!!

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Post by my2cents 2/5/2013, 1:12 pm

PG-Boy wrote:There was no issue with the question posed. Had the post ended with just the concussion aspect, its a clear-cut case of the referee protecting the safety of the player. Slam-dunk. I would be 100% in agreement with the referees decision as a coach, parent or player.

However, as the post continued, there seemed to be multiple instances of examples of the referee influencing the outcome of the game.

NearPost95s reply addressed the concussion. He had a valid reference to the rule/law that allows a referee to make a call on the possible concussion. Fair. Tongue-in-cheek I intimated that he was the referee in the game. Just in jest, nothing that should be construed as him actually being the referee in question. Hopefully folks could see right through the jest.

A cynic would see this:
- Referee unnecessarily benches the best offensive player
- Referee ensures the player is unable to return to help his team
- Usually the LOSING team earns in ordinate amount of cards due to frustration and anger, not the WINNING team. So why is the winning team earning so many cards? Possibly time-wasting. The poster doesn't indicate if the cards were evenly distributed through-out the game or skewed towards the waning minutes of the match.

Anyone that's ever played a game away from home has encountered biased referees in their playing lifetime. Referees are human. They are just as apt to be biased as the general population. This is the reason why neutral referee crews are used in international play. I'm just agreeing with the original poster.

Solution?
He's doing the right thing by using the due process in place to deal with such situations. It won't change the outcome. But perhaps if the referee in question is deemed biased, he can be kept from helping the home team again, in the future.




The refs are assigned to the games . They are not hired by the school. Coaches can only request who not to send. The only ref bias I ever see is when one team or coach is making an ass of themselves. So what do these biased refs do? Just pick one team to favor simply for their own amusement?

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Post by Guest 2/5/2013, 1:20 pm

my2cents wrote:
PG-Boy wrote:There was no issue with the question posed. Had the post ended with just the concussion aspect, its a clear-cut case of the referee protecting the safety of the player. Slam-dunk. I would be 100% in agreement with the referees decision as a coach, parent or player.

However, as the post continued, there seemed to be multiple instances of examples of the referee influencing the outcome of the game.

NearPost95s reply addressed the concussion. He had a valid reference to the rule/law that allows a referee to make a call on the possible concussion. Fair. Tongue-in-cheek I intimated that he was the referee in the game. Just in jest, nothing that should be construed as him actually being the referee in question. Hopefully folks could see right through the jest.

A cynic would see this:
- Referee unnecessarily benches the best offensive player
- Referee ensures the player is unable to return to help his team
- Usually the LOSING team earns in ordinate amount of cards due to frustration and anger, not the WINNING team. So why is the winning team earning so many cards? Possibly time-wasting. The poster doesn't indicate if the cards were evenly distributed through-out the game or skewed towards the waning minutes of the match.

Anyone that's ever played a game away from home has encountered biased referees in their playing lifetime. Referees are human. They are just as apt to be biased as the general population. This is the reason why neutral referee crews are used in international play. I'm just agreeing with the original poster.

Solution?
He's doing the right thing by using the due process in place to deal with such situations. It won't change the outcome. But perhaps if the referee in question is deemed biased, he can be kept from helping the home team again, in the future.




The refs are assigned to the games . They are not hired by the school. Coaches can only request who not to send. The only ref bias I ever see is when one team or coach is making an ass of themselves. So what do these biased refs do? Just pick one team to favor simply for their own amusement?





I spoke once to the Classic league ref liason and he told me that if a coach or parent is questionning calls then he would start callin it against that team on purpose. Great suff! We learn so much from the people who run our leagues. bounce

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Post by Slakemoth 2/5/2013, 1:25 pm

my2cents wrote:Refs are assigned to the games . They are not hired by the school. Coaches can only request who not to send. The only ref bias I ever see is when one team or coach is making an ass of themselves. So what do these biased refs do? Just pick one team to favor simply for their own amusement?

To add to this.. isn't it "against the rules" for a referee to call a game in a school District that he/she lives in, or went to school in?

I know they can do non-district games or pre-season tourneys, but not District games. (that's what I recall hearing one time) ( but to caveat.. i could be way off on this one).
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Post by PG-Boy 2/5/2013, 1:37 pm

Tomorrow; when the USA plays Honduras, the referee crew will not be American or Honduran.

It's not so easy to do it at the local or HS level. But again, referees can be biased against one team over another. I've experienced it many times, on both sides of the coin.
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Post by my2cents 2/5/2013, 2:14 pm

Slakemoth wrote:
my2cents wrote:Refs are assigned to the games . They are not hired by the school. Coaches can only request who not to send. The only ref bias I ever see is when one team or coach is making an ass of themselves. So what do these biased refs do? Just pick one team to favor simply for their own amusement?

To add to this.. isn't it "against the rules" for a referee to call a game in a school District that he/she lives in, or went to school in?

I know they can do non-district games or pre-season tourneys, but not District games. (that's what I recall hearing one time) ( but to caveat.. i could be way off on this one).

They only ask if you have a son or daughter in that district. They do not ask about other relatives such as brothers, sisters,nieces ,nephews etc.

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Post by intense2 2/5/2013, 4:59 pm

It was Keller Timber Creek vs Southlake. At Timber Creek . Timber was was up 3-0 at one point. All the cards went against Timber. Besides the player who was not allowed back two other starters for Timber were doubled yellowed. This same ref has worked Classic U-17. He called 13 yellows in one of our matches this Fall. At least then they were evenly distributed.

Was a great game to watch, both teams played well. Don't think the ref was biased, just not competent. I can see how the Timber perspective might be different.

Finally, yes, this really is my first post.

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Post by love_your_refs 2/5/2013, 8:13 pm

Ace70 wrote:I was at a HS game on Friday night and the ref benched a player after he scored his second goal of the night,a header off a long cross. The ref looked at him and "determined" that he had a concussion. The player then went and saw the trainer/doctor and they determined that he was totally fine and cleared to play. The ref refused to allow the player to come back into the game. Obviously the player and the coach went ballistic however he refused to let him back in the game. Can the ref over rule a team trainer/doctor when it is determined that he is fine to continue to play?

Also, what is the rule on stopping the clock? At least 5 times the ref stopped the clock when the "favorites" were down in score(at one point down 3 goals) when giving the "favorites" a free kick, from 30 seconds to a over minute. Once they took the lead he only stopped it one time for a 30 second injury.

Obiviously there was a huge disparity in how the ref was calling the game as the underdogs received 7 yellow cards and two red cards and the other team ... got NONE

The obvious biasness of the center ref in this game was so bad it was almost comical. Luckily the the entire game was video taped and is being sent into the UIL.


Would you post the video on youtube? Who doesn't love a good Southlake conspiracy.

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Post by twotone 2/6/2013, 12:31 am

my2cents wrote:
Slakemoth wrote:
my2cents wrote:Refs are assigned to the games . They are not hired by the school. Coaches can only request who not to send. The only ref bias I ever see is when one team or coach is making an ass of themselves. So what do these biased refs do? Just pick one team to favor simply for their own amusement?

To add to this.. isn't it "against the rules" for a referee to call a game in a school District that he/she lives in, or went to school in?

I know they can do non-district games or pre-season tourneys, but not District games. (that's what I recall hearing one time) ( but to caveat.. i could be way off on this one).

They only ask if you have a son or daughter in that district. They do not ask about other relatives such as brothers, sisters,nieces ,nephews etc.

and then you must wait for a period of time after they've graduated also. i believe its upwards of 5 years.

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Post by twotone 2/6/2013, 12:45 am

intense2 wrote:It was Keller Timber Creek vs Southlake. At Timber Creek . Timber was was up 3-0 at one point. All the cards went against Timber. Besides the player who was not allowed back two other starters for Timber were doubled yellowed. This same ref has worked Classic U-17. He called 13 yellows in one of our matches this Fall. At least then they were evenly distributed.

Was a great game to watch, both teams played well. Don't think the ref was biased, just not competent. I can see how the Timber perspective might be different.

Finally, yes, this really is my first post.

so, first, it's high school soccer and kids don't do the same that they do in club. nobody knows the reason why, but there's something about turning on the lights and being inside a stadium and playing for a badge of something that turns kids crazy. that being said, it's not uncommon for an established team with an accomplished history to underestimate an opponent with a relatively short history. they come out complacent and then turn it on after they get kicked in the mouth. they rely on those experiences in tough games and stand on that badge, and the comeback is on. that team with the short history begins to panic and things start to crumble quickly. the tempers get to flaring and composure is lost. lets not blame it on the players for not controlling themslves or for the captain for not being able to lead his team, let's instead blame it on the refere cuz it's got to be his fault, right?

second, it's high school and kids don't do things that they normally do. maybe cuz the rules are different, the coaches are different, and the parents haven't invested thousands of $$$ into the season. Well, the referees are the same and it's still fun to blame them for evrything that goes wrong for your team, except nobody knows the different rules involved. we all think we do but we don't.

thirdly, it's high school soccer and kids don't do the same thing that they normally do.

i wasn't at this game and don't even know the teams invovled. I've never heard of Timber Creek. and really don't care who won or lost.

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Post by Ace70 2/6/2013, 6:22 am

Riquelme wrote:So was the ref a doctor? Are refs required to get certified to properly diagnose head injuries? Awesome! !!!

The ref was obvioulsy not a doctor however the district trainer that was present does have an advanced degree( not doctorate)in dealing with these types of injuries. When the AD of the school and trainer presented the rules to the ref showing he was able to be cleared by a trainer he still refused to let him play.
The rumor from a very reliable source is that this ref will no longer be be calling any games in KISD and that even Southlake has asked he not be put on a crew for any of their games ( I cannot confirm this though)

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Post by Soccerinsanity 2/6/2013, 9:54 am

Words of wisdom: (nothing to do with whether this ref is right or wrong). We've had the experience of having a school trainer try to put a bb back in a game because the trainer didn't deem a significant injury. Turned out to be a major fracture---make sure your kids know to refuse to go back in if they feel injured, no matter what the trainer is saying.
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Post by Guest 2/6/2013, 9:58 am

Soccerinsanity wrote:Words of wisdom: (nothing to do with whether this ref is right or wrong). We've had the experience of having a school trainer try to put a bb back in a game because the trainer didn't deem a significant injury. Turned out to be a major fracture---make sure your kids know to refuse to go back in if they feel injured, no matter what the trainer is saying.

Trainer? Great if my kid sprains his ankle. Anything more and your opinion means diddly to me. I will take him to a real doctor and get a real opinion. PossibleConcussion? You think he's ok? Uh yea thanks for your opinion , adios...

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Post by Soccerinsanity 2/6/2013, 10:21 am

Exactly, thank goodness we saw his face and pulled him off the sideline. Would have been surgery if he had made it any worse.
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Post by nearpost95 2/6/2013, 1:39 pm

Aside from having an M.D. present to check every injured player, we do the best we can.

The player needs to remove himself if he knows he is injured, despite pressure from anyone else to continue. As in the previous example, save your kid if he can't or won't.

Someone else - coach, ref, trainer, parent - needs to remove the player if he exhibits symptoms of a head injury. I personally know the player for which the Texas concussion law (Natasha's Law) is named - a second hit before the brain recovers from the first is devastating.


Last edited by nearpost95 on 2/7/2013, 12:01 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add)

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