Europe vs College Soccer...

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 10:24 am

With more and more American players getting scouted and offered opportunities to go to Europe, it begs the question...

What if your son had that opportunity?

Go to Europe and be an 'apprentice' pro? Or take the more familiar college path?

pros and cons to both.

Cirovski, the Maryland coach, has been quoted as saying that the "top 25 college experience is a professional environment". The top college programs are capable of playing and beating top European reserve sides."

I think he has a good point.

On the other hand, the NCAA places a lot of restrictions on coach/player contact. The reality is that, even with the intense fall season, a couple of months of spring training and even PDL summer experience, the 18-21 year old American player doesn't get the training hours their foreign counterparts get.

European players of the same age often get released to lower league teams by the age of 20/21. While they do get 'vocational training' as youth players, it isn't the same as getting a university degree.

The vast majority of American parents will say, "education is more important. Therefore the easy answer is to play college soccer AND get an education".

Other things to consider...

"What if he blows his knee out/sustains a serious injury? Nothing to fall back on."

Of course you can blow your knee out and lose your scholarship money too.

As to which path is better...well that's highly debatable.

Consider this though, how many world class players (even including foreign nationals) have played college soccer? By 'world class' in this context I am talking about top 20 European clubs.

Strictly in financial terms, 4-5 years as a starter in a first division club (top 5 Euro league) is going to mean more money than 15-20 years in a 'regular' job. Alot more.

I'm sure everyone has opinions on this.

Especially as parents.

by debit 9/14/2012, 10:50 am

Most of the time, I'm a very practical person, but if my son were offered an opportunity like that, and he wanted to pursue it, I'd tell him to go chase his dreams in Europe. My son is only 10 and is dreaming of playing in Europe. Since that is nearly impossible, and I'm quite realistic about the odds, we talk a lot about the importance of education, college, etc, and hopefully I'm finding a way to do that without crushing the dreams of a young boy.

I agree that the NCAA places too many limits on training and a player would be better served developmentally to be in a youth/reserve system of a Euro club. Even if he were offered that opportunity, and tried it, but it didn't work out after a few years, it's still an amazing experience that offers a lot of development for a young man and could rival "the college experience". Living in Europe...learning a new language...fighting for your spot...living independently...competing, but building relationships with new teammates from various backgrounds...time management...

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 11:06 am

great points.

I guess it would also make a difference if it was a fairly well known club.

Important to note that Holland and Belgium don't have the same restrictions on foreign players either.

Germany has traditionally given American players opportunities as well.

Steve Cherundelo is a prime example. Captain of his Bundesliga team.

Even if a player didn't make it over there...still opportunities to play here in the states. NASL, USL and even certain college programs. Depending on circumstances.

In addition, I've always maintained that a young player can pursue their education as well. Albeit on a part time basis.

by go99 9/14/2012, 11:10 am

at that age if your son let's what you think stop him then he doesn't have what it takes anyway so might as well go to college. Professional sports is not for him.

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 11:14 am

Can you clarify that, go? Not sure what you mean.

by go99 9/14/2012, 11:25 am

to become a professionl goes beyond just talent. Drive, focus, sacrifice. The road is not easy and an invite to europe means nothing more than an opportunity to pursue it. If he really has that then he will not really care what your opinion is he will be on his way to europe. College soccer is not a path to the pro's. Not enough training and the game that is played does not translate to the pro's. Many of the MLS team look at the draft as a joke. Even the coach of UCLA said that a player can spend 1 yr 2 at the most in college before his pro career is essentially done.

by go99 9/14/2012, 11:28 am

You can start at min 3 if you like

by go99 9/14/2012, 11:29 am

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 11:54 am

Trust me go, I've seen the Wenger vid...many times.

Obviously, I agree. But bear in mind that in this country, we have a skewed view of player id and development.

meaning, we absolutely suck at it..

Theoretically, we are on the same page though.

But bear in mind, the choice would absolutely be his..not mine.

I don't think a year or two of college soccer is the kiss of death. But I do think it stunts further growth and puts you behind. No question.

I was reminded of that reality last week. Watching a PSG/Lille match. Second half PSG sends in a 17 yr old defensive midfielder. Kid made an immediate impact too. (Although not from beating 6 people and going to goal...)

I could only think, he wouldn't get that chance here.

Bottom line though is that a lot of homegrown MLS players (signed from academies) aren't getting the critical first team minutes in order to break through.

10 reserve league games aren't going to cut it either.

Bruce Arena even made the point that if they aren't playing they'd be better off playing college soccer. Presumably to get games in.

So, while we agree the pro environment is better. It's still not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.

But yeah, I agree. Determination is the deciding factor. Assuming the other things are in place.

by go99 9/14/2012, 12:10 pm

and it's that determination that will push him to pro. Even players in the reserve league are not there to play in the reserve league. They should be fighting like crazy in practice to take their minutes with the top team. If you are playing with the reserve team you are elgible for the top team so it is up to you from there. Now a big problem we have here is the bias that coaches have for experienced (old) players. Look at FCD and all of the journeyman aging players they continue to pick up. In Europe there is more of a push to see what the young guys can do and more of a willingness to get them opportunity.

College is not the kiss of death, just more of a peck on the cheek. at 20 you are about the same age as Neymar, Lucas, and Hazard. So from a club prosepctive you have the same shelf life. However they have all had years of professional experience and you have had 0. Soccer is a global market and you don't just compete against your peers here, but all over the world.

by Sprint 9/14/2012, 12:10 pm

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding you cannot get a work permit to play pro soccer in Europe unless you have a direct relative that is a EU Citizen ( Mother, Father, Grandparent). That will make it virtually impossible for most American kids to ever get a chance to play in Europe.

I have read there is an exception that if you start 75% of the games for your countries national team over a 3 year period, they will give you a work permit, but otherwise, you are stuck playing MLS, MExico or South America.

As to what to do if your kid has the chance, I see it as a no brainer. If he wants to do it at age 18 or so, why not go? He can always go to college after a few years of giving it a go in Europe. As long as he does not get attached to a girl and start having kids, (keeps costs low), I would tell him to chase the dream.

by Sprint 9/14/2012, 12:13 pm

go99 wrote:and it's that determination that will push him to pro. Even players in the reserve league are not there to play in the reserve league. They should be fighting like crazy in practice to take their minutes with the top team. If you are playing with the reserve team you are elgible for the top team so it is up to you from there. Now a big problem we have here is the bias that coaches have for experienced (old) players. Look at FCD and all of the journeyman aging players they continue to pick up. In Europe there is more of a push to see what the young guys can do and more of a willingness to get them opportunity.

College is not the kiss of death, just more of a peck on the cheek. at 20 you are about the same age as Neymar, Lucas, and Hazard. So from a club prosepctive you have the same shelf life. However they have all had years of professional experience and you have had 0. Soccer is a global market and you don't just compete against your peers here, but all over the world.

Clint Dempsey is a great example of what you are stating. He played two years at Furman, then MLS and then went to pros. By the time he got there he was in his mid 20's. This year he had a chance for teams in the EPL to bid for him, but because he was already 29, I think it may have hampered his marketability. IF he started at Fulham when he was 18, he would probably be on a bigger club right now. ( Athough the move to Tottenham was pretty good)

by go99 9/14/2012, 12:20 pm

Sprint wrote:I may be wrong, but it was my understanding you cannot get a work permit to play pro soccer in Europe unless you have a direct relative that is a EU Citizen ( Mother, Father, Grandparent). That will make it virtually impossible for most American kids to ever get a chance to play in Europe.

I have read there is an exception that if you start 75% of the games for your countries national team over a 3 year period, they will give you a work permit, but otherwise, you are stuck playing MLS, MExico or South America.

As to what to do if your kid has the chance, I see it as a no brainer. If he wants to do it at age 18 or so, why not go? He can always go to college after a few years of giving it a go in Europe. As long as he does not get attached to a girl and start having kids, (keeps costs low), I would tell him to chase the dream.

You are correct on the EU work permit. That is why the MLS should embrace it's role as a developmental league. There should be alot more younger players playing. Oh and Dempseys age absolutely hurt him. Top EPL goal scorer gets almost no offers on a transfer. Had he been younger he would have had a big money deal

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 12:35 pm

I'm not diagreeing.

By the way, I think Dempsey played 3 years at Furman. Need to check.

MLS is more concerned with bringing in older, 'name' players. Even though many I've never heard of.

Would Fulham have picked Dempsey up at 18? Not sure. But then there's the rub...he wasn't widely recruited and otherwise highly rated here.

There are fewer restrictions on American 'youth' players.

I think it's BS. We let anyone and everyone come over here.

But there's also a positive. American players are cheap. Especially young ones. Minimal if any transfer fees.

I'm with go. MLS will be a developmental league for the next 10 years. I'd rather see up and coming American talent than the 'golden boot' winner from Venezuela or Colombia.

Still, college soccer needs to be improved. Because the pro system here can't or doesn't cast a big enough net. So, college is still the only option for late bloomers or overlooked players.

Which is a HUGE problem in this country.

by go99 9/14/2012, 1:12 pm

Forget golden boot. FCD wont even get the bronze flip flop. Blas Perez has more teams than he has years played. A journeyman of no note. They should be playing kids they bring up from the academy. Maybe they make it maybe they don't but the only way to find out is to play them. Get 1 or 2 of them to show themselves as a saleable product and you make more than you ever will off of ticket sales.

by Sprint 9/14/2012, 1:16 pm

go99 wrote:Forget golden boot. FCD wont even get the bronze flip flop. Blas Perez has more teams than he has years played. A journeyman of no note. They should be playing kids they bring up from the academy. Maybe they make it maybe they don't but the only way to find out is to play them. Get 1 or 2 of them to show themselves as a saleable product and you make more than you ever will off of ticket sales.

I thought George John was getting interest from oversees at some point and there is always talk about Brek Shea going to Europe.

by go99 9/14/2012, 1:32 pm

brek should be gone and fcd should do a better job of pushing its players out there. I was actually thinking more of it's academy products though. Luna, leyva, top etc. Actually thats a perfect example. Luna led the reserve league in scoring but found it difficult to get minutes. Of course we take that overseas and a players is a leading scorer means he is getting the call up to see if he can make it with the first team. Here they want more seasoning

by Laimport 9/14/2012, 2:43 pm

go, you are on a roll!

At least loan the younger homegrown players out to nasl/usl pro clubs for minutes.

Do something!

by mspan02 9/14/2012, 3:47 pm

Arguably the 2 most decorated Goalkeepers in US history both played college soccer

Brad Friedel @ UCLA for 3 years
Kasey Keller @ Univ of Portland for 4 years

But soon to join this list Tim Howard played no years in college

Not sure on Marcus Hahnemann or any of the others

by Number13 9/14/2012, 4:24 pm

Yeah, but goalkeepers are not a great example due to the fact that have twice the shelf life of a field player.

by my2cents 9/14/2012, 9:23 pm

go99 wrote:
Sprint wrote:I may be wrong, but it was my understanding you cannot get a work permit to play pro soccer in Europe unless you have a direct relative that is a EU Citizen ( Mother, Father, Grandparent). That will make it virtually impossible for most American kids to ever get a chance to play in Europe.

I have read there is an exception that if you start 75% of the games for your countries national team over a 3 year period, they will give you a work permit, but otherwise, you are stuck playing MLS, MExico or South America.

As to what to do if your kid has the chance, I see it as a no brainer. If he wants to do it at age 18 or so, why not go? He can always go to college after a few years of giving it a go in Europe. As long as he does not get attached to a girl and start having kids, (keeps costs low), I would tell him to chase the dream.

You are correct on the EU work permit. That is why the MLS should embrace it's role as a developmental league. There should be alot more younger players playing. Oh and Dempseys age absolutely hurt him. Top EPL goal scorer gets almost no offers on a transfer. Had he been younger he would have had a big money deal

I am a little confused. How would the MLS be a developmental league if the majority of players would not be eligible for a work permit in Europe? Is this a government rule? More info please. I find it difficult to believe all the internationals in the EPL have immediate relations in Britain.

by davito 9/14/2012, 9:47 pm

Work permits have been an issue for players joining teams in the EU for decades. It is because of government regulations. Don't recall the exact rules but like someone said earlier there are requirements like being an international player.

by humble 9/14/2012, 10:39 pm

Laimport wrote:With more and more American players getting scouted and offered opportunities to go to Europe, it begs the question...

What if your son had that opportunity?

As long as he gets a college degree, why not?

Go to Europe and be an 'apprentice' pro? Or take the more familiar college path?

pros and cons to both.

In life, you should always follow your dreams! As long as you get your college degreee!

Cirovski, the Maryland coach, has been quoted as saying that the "top 25 college experience is a professional environment". The top college programs are capable of playing and beating top European reserve sides."

I think he has a good point.

On the other hand, the NCAA places a lot of restrictions on coach/player contact. The reality is that, even with the intense fall season, a couple of months of spring training and even PDL summer experience, the 18-21 year old American player doesn't get the training hours their foreign counterparts get.

European players of the same age often get released to lower league teams by the age of 20/21. While they do get 'vocational training' as youth players, it isn't the same as getting a university degree.

The vast majority of American parents will say, "education is more important. Therefore the easy answer is to play college soccer AND get an education".

Other things to consider...

"What if he blows his knee out/sustains a serious injury? Nothing to fall back on."

Of course you can blow your knee out and lose your scholarship money too.

As to which path is better...well that's highly debatable.

Consider this though, how many world class players (even including foreign nationals) have played college soccer? By 'world class' in this context I am talking about top 20 European clubs.

Strictly in financial terms, 4-5 years as a starter in a first division club (top 5 Euro league) is going to mean more money than 15-20 years in a 'regular' job. Alot more.

I'm sure everyone has opinions on this.

Especially as parents.

by go99 9/15/2012, 8:45 am

my2cents wrote:
go99 wrote:
Sprint wrote:I may be wrong, but it was my understanding you cannot get a work permit to play pro soccer in Europe unless you have a direct relative that is a EU Citizen ( Mother, Father, Grandparent). That will make it virtually impossible for most American kids to ever get a chance to play in Europe.

I have read there is an exception that if you start 75% of the games for your countries national team over a 3 year period, they will give you a work permit, but otherwise, you are stuck playing MLS, MExico or South America.

As to what to do if your kid has the chance, I see it as a no brainer. If he wants to do it at age 18 or so, why not go? He can always go to college after a few years of giving it a go in Europe. As long as he does not get attached to a girl and start having kids, (keeps costs low), I would tell him to chase the dream.

You are correct on the EU work permit. That is why the MLS should embrace it's role as a developmental league. There should be alot more younger players playing. Oh and Dempseys age absolutely hurt him. Top EPL goal scorer gets almost no offers on a transfer. Had he been younger he would have had a big money deal

I am a little confused. How would the MLS be a developmental league if the majority of players would not be eligible for a work permit in Europe? Is this a government rule? More info please. I find it difficult to believe all the internationals in the EPL have immediate relations in Britain.

Much in the same way Brazil is a developmental league

by my2cents 9/15/2012, 9:06 am

go99 wrote:
my2cents wrote:
go99 wrote:
Sprint wrote:I may be wrong, but it was my understanding you cannot get a work permit to play pro soccer in Europe unless you have a direct relative that is a EU Citizen ( Mother, Father, Grandparent). That will make it virtually impossible for most American kids to ever get a chance to play in Europe.

I have read there is an exception that if you start 75% of the games for your countries national team over a 3 year period, they will give you a work permit, but otherwise, you are stuck playing MLS, MExico or South America.

As to what to do if your kid has the chance, I see it as a no brainer. If he wants to do it at age 18 or so, why not go? He can always go to college after a few years of giving it a go in Europe. As long as he does not get attached to a girl and start having kids, (keeps costs low), I would tell him to chase the dream.

You are correct on the EU work permit. That is why the MLS should embrace it's role as a developmental league. There should be alot more younger players playing. Oh and Dempseys age absolutely hurt him. Top EPL goal scorer gets almost no offers on a transfer. Had he been younger he would have had a big money deal

I am a little confused. How would the MLS be a developmental league if the majority of players would not be eligible for a work permit in Europe? Is this a government rule? More info please. I find it difficult to believe all the internationals in the EPL have immediate relations in Britain.

Much in the same way Brazil is a developmental league

My point is that under those rules it would seem very few would be eligible to play. Most people of European descent in the states are 4th or more generations from the last major emigrations to this country. It would eliminate even more Latinos and African-Americans. It is not much of a developmental league if only 10-15% ( complete guess) of the players are even eligible to be considered.