Do the Jesuits belong in the UIL?

It's akin to allowing select teams to play in your local rec league. Rec is defined by geographical talent and the select teams are not. Go Charlie though. he has coached bb and is a great coach. Unfettered talent access and a top class coach. nice!

... that Dallas Jesuit and Houston Strake Jesuit, the only 2 private schools in the state of Texas playing public schools would both make it to the State Tournament in the same year?

There are what, >250 5A schools, and yet these two are in or get close almost every year. What a true mystery!

Honestly, just deal with it. Would everyone here rather see those schools in TAPPS? (okay, don't answer that...).
I'm a Plano homer, but love to watch Jesuit when I have the chance - nice to see talented teams play regardless of where they get their players.
Obviously, Jesuit has a recruiting advantage, but their participation isn't going to change, so, just pretend it's Southlake Carroll and it's football and go out and try to beat them.

sad_dad wrote:

hoff1032 wrote:"I live in the Marcus neighborhood ...", & "... just because Jesuit gets the "better" players ..."

This is an absurd conversation.

Schools limited by strict geographies that must compete with schools that can recruit sport-specific players from anywhere they want is patently unfair and makes a mockery of the entire UIL system. Because some GD lawyer can frighten the UIL into allowing it doesn't make it right. Everyone KNOWS it's wrong, but are powerless to stop it.

Lawyers create most of the weird situations the rest of have to live with in this country, this is just one of many. We can start a separate discussion of why there are only 2 D1 men's soccer schools in the tiny state of Texas. Another wonderful "Lawyered" outcome.

What is it that Shakespeare said? "Kill all the lawyers." As an attorney, I have to disagree a little bit with you. The lack of soccer schools in Texas has less to do with lawyers than with the Legislature passing Title IX in 1972 . Granted, some of those members of Congress and the Senate were, in fact, lawyers but some were doctors, farmers, business men, and every other profession you can think of. I'm sure The National Organization for Women played a large role as well. Equality in education is what they call it but the effect is lack of Division I men's soccer programs in the State of Texas and other states as well. The solution is simple--convince the Board of Regents at UT, Tech, A&M, etc. to offer 2 new sports; men's soccer and women's something else. Don't blame the lawyers. Blaming me for Jesuit's unfair advantage and your green color is just stupid.

Speedy Gonzales wrote:What is it that Shakespeare said? "Kill all the lawyers."

You had it right at "Kill all the lawyers."

It was a lawyer, albeit not you, that extorted the UIL into submission allowing select soccer programs to compete with public schools still bound by, what are they called ..., oh yeah, rules. "No rules" beats "bound by rules" most of the time.

Now two of them, unfairly stacked with talent from Lord knows where, have beaten all other schools in Dallas and Houston and have advanced to State. Legal engineering triumphs, all because some lawyer daddy wanted his little snowflake playing better competition than the private school league could provide.

It's an outrage.

clueless wrote:I'm a Plano homer, but love to watch Jesuit when I have the chance - nice to see talented teams play regardless of where they get their players.

You should change your screen name to "Pincushion".

sad_dad wrote:

clueless wrote:I'm a Plano homer, but love to watch Jesuit when I have the chance - nice to see talented teams play regardless of where they get their players.

You should change your screen name to "Pincushion".

Unfortunately, Clueless was given to me, I didn't choose it.

This is such an 'end of the world' type situation as is with any of these youth soccer topics - try running a business that competes with others who play be different rules (i.e. almost anything from China)....again...deal with it...or, if it's truly THAT big of a deal - get the rules changed, or...join 'em.

If I look at it from a super high level - does it make more sense for a team (of potential all-stars) compete against the tiny TAPPs contingent or against the largest geographically constrained teams from such soccer poor cities of Plano/Southlake/Flower Mound?

Personally, I'd choose the situation where the better competition is - I completely understand the sour grapes, but I do think it's more admirable if your high school can beat the 'all star' team.

sad_dad wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:What is it that Shakespeare said? "Kill all the lawyers."

You had it right at "Kill all the lawyers."

It was a lawyer, albeit not you, that extorted the UIL into submission allowing select soccer programs to compete with public schools still bound by, what are they called ..., oh yeah, rules. "No rules" beats "bound by rules" most of the time.

Now two of them, unfairly stacked with talent from Lord knows where, have beaten all other schools in Dallas and Houston and have advanced to State. Legal engineering triumphs, all because some lawyer daddy wanted his little snowflake playing better competition than the private school league could provide.

It's an outrage.

Your envious green glasses obviously aren't allowing you to read clearly. I didn't say I disagreed with you on the Jesuit situation, just the lawyers are to blame for everything part-particularly the debacle known as Title IX. I have to admit that I didn't know the "daddy lawyer" story behind the Jesuit situation until this thread, if it's true. To me, while not entirely fair, it doesn't seem that different than the manipulations that go on so that the studs can play football in Southlake and other powerhouse schools out there.

sad_dad wrote:
Let's see ... you have to use players from your rigidly defined area or forfeit games for using illegal players while they repeatedly handpick (and pay all costs for) players from wherever they want.

It's select, academy soccer playing public schools. It's ridiculous.

Come on guys, this rigidly defined area consists of a hot bead of select soccer players. Your chance will come around, just maybe after yours has moved on. Enjoy the soccer, as I'm sure the UIL rules will shift in the future and then Jesuit will go back to dominating the Dallas Parochial League...which is why they petitioned to come over to begin with.

sad_dad wrote:

old soccer dad wrote:Again, I disagree that Jesuit has a huge advantage ...

Then you better pull your head of the dirt or you will surely suffocate. The fact they have a huge, unfair advantage is inarguable.

Let's see ... you have to use players from your rigidly defined area or forfeit games for using illegal players while they repeatedly handpick (and pay all costs for) players from wherever they want.

It's select, academy soccer playing public schools. It's ridiculous.

Sorry, bud...this particular statement is an absolute un-truth. Financial Aid for STUDENTS at Jesuit has ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with their athletic ability. The board sees the parents finances...that is all. They don't know any other information on the student...athletic, academic, coler, shape, size, or religion.
If a soccer stud decides to go to Jesuit, and play for one of the top Soccer Coaches in the state...he isn't going to stay unless he can make the grade academically...and how many boys are going to go to an all-boys school...just to play socccer...when everyone with half a brain knows that Colleges don't go looking for players at high school games?
And there is no way in the world you can honestly say that public schools have been recruiting players from other schools for years...do you really think a "strict geographical boundary" has kept top football players from ending up at Southlake during their title runs? Or at Highland Park? C'mon...let's be real.

Prism wrote:

sad_dad wrote:

old soccer dad wrote:Again, I disagree that Jesuit has a huge advantage ...

Then you better pull your head of the dirt or you will surely suffocate. The fact they have a huge, unfair advantage is inarguable.

Let's see ... you have to use players from your rigidly defined area or forfeit games for using illegal players while they repeatedly handpick (and pay all costs for) players from wherever they want.

It's select, academy soccer playing public schools. It's ridiculous.

Sorry, bud...this particular statement is an absolute un-truth. Financial Aid for STUDENTS at Jesuit has ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with their athletic ability. The board sees the parents finances...that is all. They don't know any other information on the student...athletic, academic, coler, shape, size, or religion.
If a soccer stud decides to go to Jesuit, and play for one of the top Soccer Coaches in the state...he isn't going to stay unless he can make the grade academically...and how many boys are going to go to an all-boys school...just to play socccer...when everyone with half a brain knows that Colleges don't go looking for players at high school games?
And there is no way in the world you can honestly say that public schools have been recruiting players from other schools for years...do you really think a "strict geographical boundary" has kept top football players from ending up at Southlake during their title runs? Or at Highland Park? C'mon...let's be real.

I wish someone would tell me which of the Jesuit players got a full ride so they could play soccer? Just show me one kid...please and I will stick my head back into the sand.
Again anyone who has a kid that plays for Plano, Coppell, Marcus, Southlake and others will tell you the talent level is fairly even. Heck Marcus had two kids playing on the U20 national team this weekend. How many of Jesuits current players played on a national team?
I will agree they have a coaching advantage over most of the schools listed above.

a better question might be how many players on their team cannot afford the tuition and are on a needs scholorship?

Jesuit taking on, and competing, and (say it ain't so) possibly defeating public schools in soccer is nothing new. Just look at the pre-UIL Meinster Cup results. Jesuit has welcomed the challenge for many, many years. And there can be no doubt that Jesuit has a huge "advantage" in terms of academic standards. That's why one of their best midfielders is currently academically ineligible and on the bench. This team is like a band of brothers, and while some opposing "fans" hurl ugly pregame slurs at them, the Jesuit boys kneel down to say a prayer. Keep up the hatred, please, you will only make them play harder.
And the UIL caved because they knew they stood a good chance of getting their tails kicked in court. And when and if they lost in court it could open the floodgates to a bunch of private and even home-schooled competition. Oh my gosh, an All-Star home-schooled team...the sky is falling!

Did that pregame prayer include something about kicking at an opponent after you'd had a call made for you? Come on, don't sanctify them just yet. They're still teenage boys who have impulse control issues.
And I hope Jesuit isn't letting an academically ineligible player sit on their bench. That is a clear UIL violation. I know it's not the case. Coach DeLong has a long history of abiding by the UIL rules. It would be good if the parents and fans knew them as well as he does.

Reread the post. I said "fans", not players. If you were at some of the recent games you clearly heard what some of the "fans" were yelling at the Jesuit players. If not, you are selectively deaf. And it's an "All Star" team, not an "All Saints" team-right? They won't be canonized until after they play Strake in the Final. If it is a Jesuit v. Jesuit final, we'll need to make sure the suicide hotline is full-staffed.
As for "sitting on the bench"....figure of speech bwana
David Finn

irish86 wrote:Reread the post. I said "fans", not players. If you were at some of the recent games you clearly heard what some of the "fans" were yelling at the Jesuit players. If not, you are selectively deaf. And it's an "All Star" team, not an "All Saints" team-right? They won't be canonized until after they play Strake in the Final. If it is a Jesuit v. Jesuit final, we'll need to make sure the suicide hotline is full-staffed.
As for "sitting on the bench"....figure of speech bwana
David Finn

You contrasted the harassment by fans with the prayer by the players. I contrasted the behavior of the players with the prayer prior to the game. Not judging what the kids did, they make bad decisions. Judging the characterization of this team as so incredibly pious by its fans.
By the way, I have been at one of your last 4 games. Very closely, in fact. I'll also probably be on the sideline during your next game. Stop by and say hi.

Don't think I ever indicated that the Jesuit players were "pious" during competition. Would not expect kids this age to be perfect or pious. Your statement is your statement, not a direct response to anything I wrote. That is called a Straw Man argument, so don't try to twist it around. As for saying hello, whom should I look for Coach Byb? If you do decide to come out of the shadows, please do not immediately delete your post as you did last week. Or at least exhale and take a moment before you post. Regards, David Finn.

San Antonio Alamo Heights allows tuition students. I don't know exactly how that works if they are a public school, but I knew a couple of friends who played soccer there and lived out of district. The school wasn't paying their tuition or anything but I could definitely see how that would be an advantage for a private school. If a kid is in a bad district and has the means to attend a private school with a good program, that team would naturally benefit from a situation like that.

DropAndSwitch wrote:San Antonio Alamo Heights allows tuition students. I don't know exactly how that works if they are a public school, but I knew a couple of friends who played soccer there and lived out of district. The school wasn't paying their tuition or anything but I could definitely see how that would be an advantage for a private school. If a kid is in a bad district and has the means to attend a private school with a good program, that team would naturally benefit from a situation like that.

Actually, several districts allow open enrollment. Jesuit's regional final opponent is a good example. Socorro ISD allows students to transfer schools based on certain curriculum decisions not based on attendance boundaries. Wichita Falls ISD does this. Brownsville allows this for Hidalgo College Prep. What do these have in common? Final four appearances in the last few years. Coincidentally, many of the best soccer players happen to choose to go to the school that is winning at the time.
Hidalgo was brought in front of the UIL last fall for recruiting violations. Bel Air has actually been in front of the UIL, and the complaining coach showed how the player had misspelled "Bel Air" on the application, questioning what the students true motivation for attending that school would be.
Open enrollment at various high schools across the state is very similar to what the Jesuits have.
By the way, I'm predicting an All-Catholic final.

irish86 wrote:Don't think I ever indicated that the Jesuit players were "pious" during competition. Would not expect kids this age to be perfect or pious. Your statement is your statement, not a direct response to anything I wrote. That is called a Straw Man argument, so don't try to twist it around. As for saying hello, whom should I look for Coach Byb? If you do decide to come out of the shadows, please do not immediately delete your post as you did last week. Or at least exhale and take a moment before you post. Regards, David Finn.

Straw Man arguments are often valid when they are a part of larger argument. You wanted to show what honorable young men they were when they were harrassed by opponents. I wanted to show how they're pretty much like every other young man out there.

It's not nearly as weak as your ad hominem argument about me living in the shadows. My name is on every post for everyone to see. I don't have to make some sort of signature. It is exactly that sort of accountability that caused me to withdraw the post from last week. I felt some of the comments could be taken out of context and didn't want that, just as you've missed the point on my original comparison, attempting to dismiss it as a fallacious argument.
Ironic that you attempt to dismiss then attack with an even greater fallacy.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.^[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. (ouch, that will leave a mark)
Coach, my point was not that the Jesuit players are saints, but that the Jesuit haters are anything but....Cursing and slandering a bunch of players is a reflection of the folks spewing the hate. The fact that the Jesuit players and fans don't punch them in the nose is also a credit to them.
And I still don't see your name anywhere. My name is David Finn and I'll give you very good directions to my office if you care to visit.
And if you care to respond you win and will get the last word. I'm getting back to rooting for the Jesuit coach, team, parents, and school.

Let's call this one a draw. Last night's Super G meltdown did leave a mark and I'm having a bad soccer day..

irish86 wrote:A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.^[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. (ouch, that will leave a mark)
Coach, my point was not that the Jesuit players are saints, but that the Jesuit haters are anything but....Cursing and slandering a bunch of players is a reflection of the folks spewing the hate. The fact that the Jesuit players and fans don't punch them in the nose is also a credit to them.
And I still don't see your name anywhere. My name is David Finn and I'll give you very good directions to my office if you care to visit.
And if you care to respond you win and will get the last word. I'm getting back to rooting for the Jesuit coach, team, parents, and school.

I was going to root for Jesuit, but I am getting sick of your posts. Please post the address to your office, I am going to send a stripping Nun your way.

2828 North Harwood, Suite 1950, Dallas, Texas, 75201. Free parking underground. Ask for David when you/she enters.

THE NEEDLE wrote:

irish86 wrote:A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.^[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. (ouch, that will leave a mark)
Coach, my point was not that the Jesuit players are saints, but that the Jesuit haters are anything but....Cursing and slandering a bunch of players is a reflection of the folks spewing the hate. The fact that the Jesuit players and fans don't punch them in the nose is also a credit to them.
And I still don't see your name anywhere. My name is David Finn and I'll give you very good directions to my office if you care to visit.
And if you care to respond you win and will get the last word. I'm getting back to rooting for the Jesuit coach, team, parents, and school.

I was going to root for Jesuit, but I am getting sick of your posts. Please post the address to your office, I am going to send a stripping Nun your way.

Sounds like you need to get out of that office to take the edge off a bit. I heard Club609 has a great happy hour from 4-7 and their martinis are the best. You can tell me all about the stripping nun.

It is better to stay silent and be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.