Rec Players and Club Teams

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 8:28 am

This is probably a dumb question, but I won't know for certain if I don't ask. Can a registered Rec. player practice with a Club team, assuming he/she had permission from both coaches? The kicker would be that the player in question would be 04', so, too young for club, but in the area, there are no current 04' Academy teams.

So given that, is there a rule stating that players not registered with the club are not allowed to practice w/ said club? Or is it because the player in question would be registered with a Rec. association.

I do realize that said players can not play in Club games/Tournaments/scrimmages...but I'm just talking about practice.

Thanks.

by allen04 8/15/2013, 8:34 am

The answer is yes; they can practice.

Now prepare yourself to be bombarded with PM's trying to get your kid to come to someone's team "in your area".

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 9:06 am

Thanks for the quick reply.

We've been told we can practice until the Rec season starts, then we have to stop and can start again when Rec season ends. Then we also have been told, by the Rec Assoc., that registered rec players are not allowed to practice with club teams at all. So, I was just wondering if there was an actual rule I could point to, or if it was a organization policy. If it were up to the Club coach, he'd have him out there whenever he wanted to come, but he also wants to make sure he follows whatever rule(s) are in place. I do understand that.

To be honest, as much as he enjoys the scrimmages and tournaments, ect....he just loves the training and can't wait to go, loves the coaches and other players. It stinks that Rec. starts in a few more weeks and then he can't go out to the club training anymore.

On the bright side....he can tryout for that same team next Summer. So there's that.

I suppose if there is no "official" rule stating that a Rec. player can't practice with a club team, while both are in season, then maybe the club or our rec association has some sort of policy on it.

by TxHunter 8/15/2013, 9:14 am

An 04 is not considered a competitive player. Must be 11 by July 31st of the following year of select. This year you have to be 11 by July 31st 2014 to be allowed to participate in U11 competitive. The REC association is wrong - at this age you are "free agent" so to speak and can play with any academy team or rec team.

Once you sign the competitive release then everything changes and you cannot play rec without a competitive release from North Texas.

by R1 8/15/2013, 9:31 am

madmark33 wrote:Thanks for the quick reply.

We've been told we can practice until the Rec season starts, then we have to stop and can start again when Rec season ends. Then we also have been told, by the Rec Assoc., that registered rec players are not allowed to practice with club teams at all. So, I was just wondering if there was an actual rule I could point to, or if it was a organization policy. If it were up to the Club coach, he'd have him out there whenever he wanted to come, but he also wants to make sure he follows whatever rule(s) are in place. I do understand that.

To be honest, as much as he enjoys the scrimmages and tournaments, ect....he just loves the training and can't wait to go, loves the coaches and other players. It stinks that Rec. starts in a few more weeks and then he can't go out to the club training anymore.

On the bright side....he can tryout for that same team next Summer. So there's that.

I suppose if there is no "official" rule stating that a Rec. player can't practice with a club team, while both are in season, then maybe the club or our rec association has some sort of policy on it.

Its been awhile since my boys were pre-select age, but from what I remember, your boy is too young to be on a "competitive" team. As far as those rules are concerned, they deal with "competitive" players, and "recreational" players. Since your boy is too young to be "competitive", he is actually considered "rec", even if he is on a club team, and even it the club team he is on has been undefeated in 2 years playing against all the best other club teams in the area. They are still not considered competitive according to the rules until they are of age (U11).

If the rec team he is playing on is playing in an NTSSA regulated league (like PYSA), and his club team is ALSO playing in a NTSSA regulated league (like PYSA) - then they won't let him play on 2 different outdoor teams at the same time at this age.

But from my experience, all these club teams avoid the NTSSA leagues - and go to these renegade leagues (not regulated by the NTSSA) all over the place where they want to play against the best teams and be able to move players in and out of their rosters without much oversight, so they can develop a good team by the time they go select at U11. The NTSSA leagues are very rule oriented as far as players on a team's roster, but these renegade leagues have a hands-off approach to player movement on rosters - so that is where the club teams play at the pre-select ages.

All that being said, most likely, your club team coach doesn't want you playing on another outdoor team - and that is most likely his team decision/rule, not the NTSSA's - because most likely you aren't playing in a NTSSA regulated league with your club. He wants to keep your child from being recruited onto another team.

You can play/practice with another team - rec or club - but if your coach finds out, he might have a problem with it. What the coach would do about it depends on how good your son is.

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 10:01 am

You guys are correct. He is currently too young for competitive and is only rostered on one team, that being a Rec. team. He will be of age next season and can try out for competitive in July 14'. But for now, all we have available is Rec and it is with NTSSA.

He was playing "up", back in the Spring on an 03' Academy team, but they went competitive as of July, which is the normal process I believe for that age group.

My son was attending their practices the past month as a "guest", just to get in some quality training. He is not part of the team, no games, scrimmages, tournaments or anything like that, just training sessions.

That's when the issue, I suppose, arose, does he have to stop attending their competitive team training sessions, as a guest, since he is rostered on a Recreational team? Not from a policy standpoint, but is there and actual NTSSA ruling on this or an official Competitive rule about this?

by R1 8/15/2013, 10:41 am

madmark33 wrote:You guys are correct. He is currently too young for competitive and is only rostered on one team, that being a Rec. team. He will be of age next season and can try out for competitive in July 14'. But for now, all we have available is Rec and it is with NTSSA.

He was playing "up", back in the Spring on an 03' Academy team, but they went competitive as of July, which is the normal process I believe for that age group.

My son was attending their practices the past month as a "guest", just to get in some quality training. He is not part of the team, no games, scrimmages, tournaments or anything like that, just training sessions.

That's when the issue, I suppose, arose, does he have to stop attending their competitive team training sessions, as a guest, since he is rostered on a Recreational team? Not from a policy standpoint, but is there and actual NTSSA ruling on this or an official Competitive rule about this?

If that is the case, then I don't think he can practice with the select team. I'm not sure the rule number, but I know I've heard of teams getting in trouble who let "little brothers" practice with them on a regular basis - which seems silly, but that is what I've heard in the past.

Here is a link to the rules: http://www.ntxsoccer.org/assets/pdfs/2012-2013_NTSSA_Bylaws_and_Rules__8-12.pdf

I don't see anything directly on point, but I know since he is under U11 - he can't play any outdoor games with them. I don't think he would be allowed to practice because a select team can't let a player on another NTSSA roster play with them without a release from the prior coach. He isn't a "free agent" because is defined as a player who is between U11-U19. Your son is too young to be a free agent - so I don't think the team can allow him to practice with them - for outdoor that is.

(Edited - hit enter too fast)

by allen04 8/15/2013, 10:53 am

I've heard of teams getting in trouble

Busted by the soccer police or bitter parents?

by Guest 8/15/2013, 10:56 am

Rec Players and Club Teams Jimmies_7dcb25_680066

allen04 wrote:The answer is yes; they can practice.

Now prepare yourself to be bombarded with PM's trying to get your kid to come to someone's team "in your area".

by moveyourfeet 8/15/2013, 11:10 am

madmark33 wrote:You guys are correct. He is currently too young for competitive and is only rostered on one team, that being a Rec. team. He will be of age next season and can try out for competitive in July 14'. But for now, all we have available is Rec and it is with NTSSA.

He was playing "up", back in the Spring on an 03' Academy team, but they went competitive as of July, which is the normal process I believe for that age group.

My son was attending their practices the past month as a "guest", just to get in some quality training. He is not part of the team, no games, scrimmages, tournaments or anything like that, just training sessions.

That's when the issue, I suppose, arose, does he have to stop attending their competitive team training sessions, as a guest, since he is rostered on a Recreational team? Not from a policy standpoint, but is there and actual NTSSA ruling on this or an official Competitive rule about this?

I would recommend trying out well before then. You want to find a proper fit for your kid and your family, and that may take some time. By July comes, most teams are set and busy preparing for QT. Some coaches may not be interested in taking the time to evaluate a player to add to his already full roster.

And here are some rules that may help:
3.10 YOUTH CONTRACTS AND RELEASES 3.10.1
No coach, assistant coach, trainer, or team representative may practice any soccer related activity with any NTSSA registered player who does not appear on his current NTSSA roster or is not considered to be a free agent by current NTSSA Rules and Regulations except for a coach, who at the request of another teams coach, substitutes for that coach at practice or games for the convenience of the requesting coach. A free agent is a player in the U-11 through U-19 age division who desires to participate on a competitive team and is not rostered to any team. A competitive player may practice with another team if he has received a written permission letter signed by his current coach that sets out the dates and the team with which the player will practice. The player is to give the letter to the coach of the team with which he is practicing, and he must keep a copy for himself.

3.10.3 Soccer Academies
1. A “Soccer Academy” is a group of Under 7 through Under 10 registered NTSSA recreational players who desire to participate with other players without following the recreational team formation rules. Players must register with their home association and may or may not be on a recreational team, unless required to be on a recreational team by their home association. Academies are to be governed by NTSSA Youth Associations, and NTSSA Youth Associations may host as many Soccer Academies as they deem desirable. Academy teams are governed by the league in which they participate. (If more than one association is involved in an academy league an A&D committee should be in place.)
2. Coaches, trainers, administrators, etc., of Soccer Academies must have satisfactorily passed the criminal background check and information sent to NTSSA.
3. Soccer Academy play is in addition to recreational play. Players may join any Soccer Academy of their choosing within their age group, and are not required to obtain a release from their NTSSA recreational team to participate on an Academy team. Players must present a form of proof of registration signed by their home association registrar each time they participate with an Academy. Players may join as many Soccer Academies as they like as long as the Soccer Academy is recognized by a North Texas Soccer Member Youth Association. No formal contract or written commitment may be signed by or on behalf of the player to commit a player to an Academy team. The Academies may charge a fee to cover expenses in addition to the player’s recreational soccer registration fees. Academy players are limited to one (1) practice per week with each of their Academy team(s). Academy players may only play in one (1) Academy game per week, except tournaments. Academy players may participate in only one Academy tournament at a time. Violations of this rule shall result in sanctions against the offending party (coach, assistant coach, manager, parent, or other team representative), which could include suspension from all soccer activities for a period of time.

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 11:31 am

It seems that Rule 3.10.1 pretty much covers it. Naturally it would take a parent going to the organization w/ proof and such, but still, no point in taking a needless risk.

That does, for lack of a better term, "suck"...the catch is, he's too young to acquire permission to practice with the competitive team because he's not of age yet. Of course if he were old enough for competitive, there would be no issue.

The reason I say July '14 for tryouts is that is when the club here has their yearly tryout dates for the respective age groups and teams. July 1st. I believe they hold an open camp through the month of June and then a tryout that first week of July. My son wont be old enough to tryout before then.

There's also no Academy nearby, currently, the 03' he was on went competitive and there is no 04'.

Thanks for all the input, there is a lot of good info. here and we'll just ride it out in Rec. for a while and maybe look into privates from one of the competitive coaches around here.

by foghornleghorn 8/15/2013, 11:35 am

3.10.3 in the NTSSA Rules is what governs. Yes your BB can play for both Rec and Academy teams in the U7-U10 age range. If any coach tells you different, run cuz they're an idiot.

by sonsofthunder 8/15/2013, 11:55 am

madmark33 wrote:

Thanks for all the input, there is a lot of good info. here and we'll just ride it out in Rec. for a while and maybe look into privates from one of the competitive coaches around here.

Should I go there? Guess I just did. Sorry, could not resist.

by moveyourfeet 8/15/2013, 12:00 pm

foghornleghorn wrote:3.10.3 in the NTSSA Rules is what governs. Yes your BB can play for both Rec and Academy teams in the U7-U10 age range. If any coach tells you different, run cuz they're an idiot.

Back in the day, there was a pretty good Academy team playing in the same league that we were in (SDL). A dad took the entire team and played them in rec. soccer as well. That team mopped the fields against all the rec. teams and that dad loved to tell everyone what a good coach he was, what is record was, his goals for vs. goals against, etc. It was quite annoying, and I wasn't even on that team.

I had an old baseball mitt that could have been coach and finished with the same record as him.

But anyways, you can definitely do both, although competitive coach and rec. coach doesn't like you doing the other in most instances.

by my2cents 8/15/2013, 12:43 pm

I do not see where the rules address this scenario at all and therefore there is absolutely no reason you can not do it. The rules state restrictions for academy and rec play which is not what this is . There are rules about playing up into select but he is not being rostered and it can not be considered recruiting as he is not eligible per age restrictions to play on that team. I would view this as skills session outside of practice and there are no restrictions on where a rec player can practice. There are competitive restrictions on practice but he is not a competitive player so I do not see it applying to the player or coach.

You say the rec association said he can't do it. I am curious as to how the question came to their attention? Who involved them and why?

by soccermom97b 8/15/2013, 1:09 pm

madmark33 wrote:It seems that Rule 3.10.1 pretty much covers it. Naturally it would take a parent going to the organization w/ proof and such, but still, no point in taking a needless risk.

That does, for lack of a better term, "suck"...the catch is, he's too young to acquire permission to practice with the competitive team because he's not of age yet. Of course if he were old enough for competitive, there would be no issue.

The reason I say July '14 for tryouts is that is when the club here has their yearly tryout dates for the respective age groups and teams. July 1st. I believe they hold an open camp through the month of June and then a tryout that first week of July. My son wont be old enough to tryout before then.

There's also no Academy nearby, currently, the 03' he was on went competitive and there is no 04'.

Thanks for all the input, there is a lot of good info. here and we'll just ride it out in Rec. for a while and maybe look into privates from one of the competitive coaches around here.

If your son is an '04...you are not "competitive" age yet and those rules don't apply to you. Competitive is considered to be U11..and you're U10 if I'm understanding you correctly

by foghornleghorn 8/15/2013, 1:29 pm

madmark33 wrote:It seems that Rule 3.10.1 pretty much covers it.

Nope... 3.10.3.

3.10.1 is for competitive youth players (i.e., U11+).

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 1:41 pm

Ah, so if I understand correctly, since he's an 04', or U10, and simply a registered Rec player w/ NTSSA and not of competitive age, there is no written rule saying that he cannot practice with a competitive team. If I'm understanding correctly?

Of course I realize that the local clubs and organizations may have their own policies and such, but I just wanted to be aware of rules in place by any organizations such as NTSSA. I'll probably try to contact the youth commissioner too, just to see.

by R1 8/15/2013, 1:46 pm

foghornleghorn wrote:
madmark33 wrote:It seems that Rule 3.10.1 pretty much covers it.
Nope... 3.10.3. 3.10.1 is for competitive youth players (i.e., U11+).

The rule applies to competitive "teams" - not players. So yea, your player won't get in trouble, but the competitive team will.

Look at the following rules. You aren't going to find a "competitive" team or club that is going to allow a under-aged player to come in regularly - especially if its a top-end team with competitors who want to find a reason to give the team problems.

If your team allows under aged players to practice with it, fine - the player is not the one at risk - its the team that is at risk.

3.10 YOUTH CONTRACTS AND RELEASES
3.10.1
No coach, assistant coach, trainer, or team representative may practice any soccer related activity
with any NTSSA registered player who does not appear on his current NTSSA roster or is not
considered to be a free agent by current NTSSA Rules and Regulations except for a coach, who at
the request of another teams coach, substitutes for that coach at practice or games for the
convenience of the requesting coach. A free agent is a player in the U-11 through U-19 age
division who desires to participate on a competitive team and is not rostered to any team. A
competitive player may practice with another team if he has received a written permission letter
signed by his current coach that sets out the dates and the team with which the player will practice.
The player is to give the letter to the coach of the team with which he is practicing, and he must
keep a copy for himself.

4.10 TRYOUTS
NTSSA has no rule that condones or restricts tryouts except that tryouts are not allowed for U-6 through U-
10 players. It does, therefore, support its Member Association’s rules concerning the matter. If the
player’s home association does not allow or refuses the right to hold tryouts, NTSSA must uphold the
Member Association’s actions.

4.11 COMPETITIVE LEAGUE RESTRICTIONS FOR U-6, U-8, AND U-10
4.11.1
No Member Association may conduct or sponsor any competitive league competition in U-6, U-8,
and U-10 age groups.
Players who have not attained the proper age to be eligible for Under 12 play shall not be allowed
to play up on competitive (select or tryout) teams or in tournaments designated as competitive
(this includes recreational all-star teams).
Players who are not eligible for Under 12 play are not free agents and are not eligible to attend
tryouts.

4.11.2
Those Member Associations who are found to be in violation of this rule, after a formal
investigation conducted by the State Youth Commissioner, shall be immediately declared to be in
bad standing as defined in NTSSA Bylaws Article II, Paragraph 2.2.3-6,7. Teams of such
Member Associations shall be removed from all competition: Intrastate, Interstate, Regional, and
National. Should teams from this association have travel permits approved, they also will be
rescinded

by murito 8/15/2013, 1:51 pm

madmark33 wrote:Ah, so if I understand correctly, since he's an 04', or U10, and simply a registered Rec player w/ NTSSA and not of competitive age, there is no written rule saying that he cannot practice with a competitive team. If I'm understanding correctly?

Of course I realize that the local clubs and organizations may have their own policies and such, but I just wanted to be aware of rules in place by any organizations such as NTSSA. I'll probably try to contact the youth commissioner too, just to see.

The unwritten rule comes from the competitive player’s parents. They will not appreciate to see the rec or academy boys practicing along with their very expensive competitive team’s boys…

by foghornleghorn 8/15/2013, 1:58 pm

madmark33 wrote:Ah, so if I understand correctly, since he's an 04', or U10, and simply a registered Rec player w/ NTSSA and not of competitive age, there is no written rule saying that he cannot practice with a competitive team. If I'm understanding correctly?

Of course I realize that the local clubs and organizations may have their own policies and such, but I just wanted to be aware of rules in place by any organizations such as NTSSA. I'll probably try to contact the youth commissioner too, just to see.

Correct!

BUT to R1's point... I respectfully disagree as the club will not get into trouble in my opinion. The U10 team is not a competitive team but rather a "Soccer Academy" team under 3.10.3. See also sub.7, "The purposes of the Soccer Academies are to:"

by R1 8/15/2013, 2:00 pm

foghornleghorn wrote:
madmark33 wrote:Ah, so if I understand correctly, since he's an 04', or U10, and simply a registered Rec player w/ NTSSA and not of competitive age, there is no written rule saying that he cannot practice with a competitive team. If I'm understanding correctly?

Of course I realize that the local clubs and organizations may have their own policies and such, but I just wanted to be aware of rules in place by any organizations such as NTSSA. I'll probably try to contact the youth commissioner too, just to see.
Correct!

BUT to R1's point... I respectfully disagree as the club will not get into trouble in my opinion. The U10 team is not a competitive team but rather a "Soccer Academy" team under 3.10.3. See also sub.7, "The purposes of the Soccer Academies are to:"

I think what you are missing Foghorn, is that he said his son is going to be a U10 this year, and he has been playing up with a team that just went select (U11 now), and he wants his kid to keep practicing with this select team, even though he can't play games with them.

Or maybe you did understand that, dunno from your responses.

by madmark33 8/15/2013, 2:21 pm

I do understand the possibility of the competitive team parents not being keen on the Rec or Academy player being present at training. Luckily, this particular team is one that he played with for 2 seasons when they were Academy age and we are familiar with all the families. In fact they were all disappointed when they found out that he was actually too young to try out for the competitive roster back in July. He is also friends with the boys on the team so they are very used to seeing him and working with him.

So, luckily for us I don't think, there would be any type of resentment. Plus we would pay for the training too and that would offset team costs.

But, nonetheless, it would seem best to hold out so that the club and team don't get in trouble, just to be safe.

Yes, R1, that is correct.

by foghornleghorn 8/15/2013, 2:26 pm

R1 wrote:
foghornleghorn wrote:
madmark33 wrote:Ah, so if I understand correctly, since he's an 04', or U10, and simply a registered Rec player w/ NTSSA and not of competitive age, there is no written rule saying that he cannot practice with a competitive team. If I'm understanding correctly?

Of course I realize that the local clubs and organizations may have their own policies and such, but I just wanted to be aware of rules in place by any organizations such as NTSSA. I'll probably try to contact the youth commissioner too, just to see.
Correct!

BUT to R1's point... I respectfully disagree as the club will not get into trouble in my opinion. The U10 team is not a competitive team but rather a "Soccer Academy" team under 3.10.3. See also sub.7, "The purposes of the Soccer Academies are to:"
I think what you are missing Foghorn, is that he said his son is going to be a U10 this year, and he has been playing up with a team that just went select (U11 now), and he wants his kid to keep practicing with this select team, even though he can't play games with them.

Or maybe you did understand that, dunno from your responses.

You are right... I missed that point. If his son is U10 he cannot play/practice with a select U11 team. He'll have to wait until his son is U11 and then he can play/practice with the U12 team.

But it was a fun discussion! cheers

by my2cents 8/15/2013, 2:27 pm

R1 wrote:
foghornleghorn wrote:
madmark33 wrote:It seems that Rule 3.10.1 pretty much covers it.
Nope... 3.10.3. 3.10.1 is for competitive youth players (i.e., U11+).

The rule applies to competitive "teams" - not players. So yea, your player won't get in trouble, but the competitive team will.

Look at the following rules. You aren't going to find a "competitive" team or club that is going to allow a under-aged player to come in regularly - especially if its a top-end team with competitors who want to find a reason to give the team problems.

If your team allows under aged players to practice with it, fine - the player is not the one at risk - its the team that is at risk.

3.10 YOUTH CONTRACTS AND RELEASES
3.10.1
No coach, assistant coach, trainer, or team representative may practice any soccer related activity
with any NTSSA registered player who does not appear on his current NTSSA roster or is not
considered to be a free agent by current NTSSA Rules and Regulations except for a coach, who at
the request of another teams coach, substitutes for that coach at practice or games for the
convenience of the requesting coach. A free agent is a player in the U-11 through U-19 age
division who desires to participate on a competitive team and is not rostered to any team. A
competitive player may practice with another team if he has received a written permission letter
signed by his current coach that sets out the dates and the team with which the player will practice.
The player is to give the letter to the coach of the team with which he is practicing, and he must
keep a copy for himself.

4.10 TRYOUTS
NTSSA has no rule that condones or restricts tryouts except that tryouts are not allowed for U-6 through U-
10 players. It does, therefore, support its Member Association’s rules concerning the matter. If the
player’s home association does not allow or refuses the right to hold tryouts, NTSSA must uphold the
Member Association’s actions.

4.11 COMPETITIVE LEAGUE RESTRICTIONS FOR U-6, U-8, AND U-10
4.11.1
No Member Association may conduct or sponsor any competitive league competition in U-6, U-8,
and U-10 age groups.
Players who have not attained the proper age to be eligible for Under 12 play shall not be allowed
to play up on competitive (select or tryout) teams or in tournaments designated as competitive
(this includes recreational all-star teams).
Players who are not eligible for Under 12 play are not free agents and are not eligible to attend
tryouts.

4.11.2
Those Member Associations who are found to be in violation of this rule, after a formal
investigation conducted by the State Youth Commissioner, shall be immediately declared to be in
bad standing as defined in NTSSA Bylaws Article II, Paragraph 2.2.3-6,7. Teams of such
Member Associations shall be removed from all competition: Intrastate, Interstate, Regional, and
National. Should teams from this association have travel permits approved, they also will be
rescinded

These rules above need to be considered in the context of the sections they are in.

3.10 YOUTH CONTRACTS AND RELEASES
3.10.1
This player is not of the age to be entered into a youth contract nor need a release from one therefore this section is not pertannent to this player or a coach's dealings with him..

4.10 TRYOUTS
This is not a tryout. Not relevant.

4.11 COMPETITIVE LEAGUE RESTRICTIONS FOR U-6, U-8, AND U-10
4.11.1
There is no league play involved. Not relevant

As a former A&D Chairman that is how I would advise committee members to rule here. There is no harm to either team, no advantaged afforded either team. Therefore any committeee or chairman should rule in favor of the player as there is no rule specifically forbidding it under these circumstances.

And once again who is the complaint going to be filed by?

Just my 2cents worth. Smile