Club Pass Players

by freckles 7/23/2013, 2:02 pm

Can't believe no one is on here talking about the new "Club Pass" rule that went into effect. I hear CCSAI will be putting in into effect this season. No promises on any rules yet. Lake Highlands and Plano are waiting a season to see what happens I guess. Just tried the new poll option to see what happens. Go.

by moveyourfeet 7/23/2013, 2:05 pm

by freckles 7/23/2013, 2:08 pm

Ha! Very funny. Guess it's ok for (Insert Club name here) to pull 5 players off their D1 elite team and play against your bb's D2 team trying to qualify for D1. Even more fun for tournaments! 5 club pass players and there goes the bracket. Sorry to bore you. Some of us are quite concerned about it.

by Sprint 7/23/2013, 2:23 pm

freckles wrote:Ha! Very funny. Guess it's ok for (Insert Club name here) to pull 5 players off their D1 elite team and play against your bb's D2 team trying to qualify for D1. Even more fun for tournaments! 5 club pass players and there goes the bracket. Sorry to bore you. Some of us are quite concerned about it.

I know next to nothing about this rule, but it was my understanding that a club could only pull players off a lower ranked team to play up, but not the other way around. For example if a club had a D1 team and a D11 team, the D1 team could pull up players from the D11 team but the D11 team could not pull players off the D1 team. I also think I recall a thread a week or so ago discussing this in detail.

by moveyourfeet 7/23/2013, 2:27 pm

From what I've heard, this is not a new rule. It has been around.

I highly suspect that a year from now, you will realize that this is nothing to get worked up over.

I've seen this same rule applied in a different soccer situation. They main thing it did was allow lower levels players
to move up and play with the elite teams because of injuries or just that they deserved to get to play in showcase games
for college scouts.

Rarely did any "elite" players move down to a lower level team and play. The only instances that I know of was the kid
on the end of the "elite" bench that was getting no playing time. Actually the kid was practicing full time and not even
being able to dress out at games due to the number of players allowed to dress out. The kid in question went down to
play one tournament and get some playing time. He was not the type player to make a difference to that squad.

No coach in his right mind is going to allow his truly elite players to move down to another squad to risk injury just
to chase some meaningless hardware.

Take my word, this whole thing will be a big nothing.

by freckles 7/23/2013, 2:44 pm

Sprint, that would be great if that was the rule. I dare you to find it anywhere. It is a new rule different from a player release in that you can use a club pass player in league play without all the pesky paperwork.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory. Goalie breaks his arm, the other team lends him theirs. Problem is that there AREN'T any rules in place to keep the abusers from abusing. We all know that cheaters are going to cheat, but hey! Let's just open the door for them and hand them the keys!

by Sprint 7/23/2013, 3:05 pm

freckles wrote:Sprint, that would be great if that was the rule. I dare you to find it anywhere. It is a new rule different from a player release in that you can use a club pass player in league play without all the pesky paperwork.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory. Goalie breaks his arm, the other team lends him theirs. Problem is that there AREN'T any rules in place to keep the abusers from abusing. We all know that cheaters are going to cheat, but hey! Let's just open the door for them and hand them the keys!

I get tired head when I hear terms like North Texas Soccer Association, Loan forms, release, roster changes, player cards, registration etc, confused

so I will in no way be able to find out any details about any rules for North Texas Soccer, Classic League, PPL, APL, NRA, MIB or FYI.

I leave all that up to the manager of any team my kid is on and I wouldn't know the first place to look for the details of any rules.

I could be wrong and it may be a pandoras box, but in the words of Mr. Kruger, "I'm not too worried about it." Very Happy

by moveyourfeet 7/23/2013, 3:17 pm

Sprint wrote:
freckles wrote:Sprint, that would be great if that was the rule. I dare you to find it anywhere. It is a new rule different from a player release in that you can use a club pass player in league play without all the pesky paperwork.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory. Goalie breaks his arm, the other team lends him theirs. Problem is that there AREN'T any rules in place to keep the abusers from abusing. We all know that cheaters are going to cheat, but hey! Let's just open the door for them and hand them the keys!

I get tired head when I hear terms like North Texas Soccer Association, Loan forms, release, roster changes, player cards, registration etc, so I will in no way be able to find out any details about any rules for North Texas Soccer, Classic League, PPL, APL, NRA, MIB or FYI.

I leave all that up to the manager of any team my kid is on and I wouldn't know the first place to look for the details of any rules.

I could be wrong and it may be a pandoras box, but in the words of Mr. Kruger, "I'm not too worried about it."

by Sprint 7/23/2013, 3:21 pm

moveyourfeet wrote:
Sprint wrote:
freckles wrote:Sprint, that would be great if that was the rule. I dare you to find it anywhere. It is a new rule different from a player release in that you can use a club pass player in league play without all the pesky paperwork.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory. Goalie breaks his arm, the other team lends him theirs. Problem is that there AREN'T any rules in place to keep the abusers from abusing. We all know that cheaters are going to cheat, but hey! Let's just open the door for them and hand them the keys!

I get tired head when I hear terms like North Texas Soccer Association, Loan forms, release, roster changes, player cards, registration etc, so I will in no way be able to find out any details about any rules for North Texas Soccer, Classic League, PPL, APL, NRA, MIB or FYI.

I leave all that up to the manager of any team my kid is on and I wouldn't know the first place to look for the details of any rules.

I could be wrong and it may be a pandoras box, but in the words of Mr. Kruger, "I'm not too worried about it."

" Look George, three times around, no hands...."

by moveyourfeet 7/23/2013, 3:39 pm

Sprint wrote:

" Look George, three times around, no hands...."

I looked for an animated gif of that, but I could not find it.
Here is a gem....

Club Pass Players 7BXCjqN

by Fanofson 7/24/2013, 3:54 pm

Sprint wrote:
freckles wrote:Sprint, that would be great if that was the rule. I dare you to find it anywhere. It is a new rule different from a player release in that you can use a club pass player in league play without all the pesky paperwork.

I don't think it's a bad idea in theory. Goalie breaks his arm, the other team lends him theirs. Problem is that there AREN'T any rules in place to keep the abusers from abusing. We all know that cheaters are going to cheat, but hey! Let's just open the door for them and hand them the keys!

I get tired head when I hear terms like North Texas Soccer Association, Loan forms, release, roster changes, player cards, registration etc, so I will in no way be able to find out any details about any rules for North Texas Soccer, Classic League, PPL, APL, NRA, MIB or FYI.

I leave all that up to the manager of any team my kid is on and I wouldn't know the first place to look for the details of any rules.

I could be wrong and it may be a pandoras box, but in the words of Mr. Kruger, "I'm not too worried about it."

I was there for the vote. I do agree with the concept but without guidelines in place I am afraid of how it might be abused.

by passfast 7/29/2013, 11:39 am

I didn't know it was a new rule, but I have been hearing that LP is planning to make their 98s (3 teams) practice together...and will move players up/down accordingly.

by Laroja_2012 7/29/2013, 11:50 am

passfast wrote:I didn't know it was a new rule, but I have been hearing that LP is planning to make their 98s (3 teams) practice together...and will move players up/down accordingly.

sounds nice: you sign a contract for a team and before you know it, you are in another one! I would expect many unhappy parents!

by Number13 7/29/2013, 12:52 pm

I just keep picturing Gary Oldman from The Professional when they ask him who to bring (to the game in this case).

EVERYONE!!!!!!

Eff it, bring 'em on.

by Speedy Gonzales 7/29/2013, 1:43 pm

Here is the "new" North Texas rule as quoted by mansfieldunitedfc in the other thread (CAVEAT: I have been unable to find this text on North Texas website but others have said the website just has not been updated yet...Also, emphasis below is mine):

"4.8 Club Pass Players

4.8.1 - Competitive teams will be permitted to have club pass players for league and/or tournament games if specifically allowed by the league or tournament rules. The use of club pass players shall be in accordance with the following:

6. The club pass player must be a competitive player registered with NTSSA to another team within the same club.
7. The club pass player may not play down from their own age group.
8. A release from the team to which the player is rostered is not required. It is up to the club to manage any issues within their teams/parents/coaches relating to club pass players.
9. Club pass players may practice with the team to which they are scheduled to player pass.
10. The team and club pass player must follow the rules of the competition, including but not limited to total numbers of club pass players allowed per game and/or the number of teams with which a player may compete in a day, week or event.

4.8.2 - Any coach/team utilizing a club pass player outside of these rules or the rules of the competition will be considered to have played an ineligible player and will be subject to sanctions/discipline under the rules governing use of an ineligible player."

The first part I highlighted above would seem to be the key to me. League Rules (in this case Classic League) would have to "specifically allow" club pass players. Everything from the other thread indicates that, so far, it has only been approved by vote. If North Texas Rules say Classic League Rules must specifically approve it, I think Classic League needs to get on the ball and put it in their rule book with guidelines (the third highlighted part above) since Clubs must follow the Leagues Rules regarding number of pass players and how many teams/games per day, week, event, etc. In the same vain, I am still at a loss to see how a team with a full roster of 18 can add any pass players without some guidance from Classic League on temporary deactivation of rostered players to allow room under the cap for pass players, unless they will just shift that player to another team in the club for the week he is being replaced by a pass player. Game day rosters still can't exceed 18 players. If I were an independent, I think I would object to the use of any Club Pass player on the roster until the League authorizes it in writing and gives the guidance North Texas requires in the above-quoted rule.

by earbucket 7/29/2013, 2:31 pm

passfast wrote:I didn't know it was a new rule, but I have been hearing that LP is planning to make their 98s (3 teams) practice together...and will move players up/down accordingly.

So, does it work like this? Players compete against each other for spots on teams A, B and C. Players on A team are pushed by B and C players and players on B are pushed by C players. Player on A takes it too easy in practice/games and gets bumped to B. Internal competition is beneficial but good timing, balanced handling and open communication are keys. Certainly will be interesting to follow.

by freckles 7/29/2013, 3:00 pm

passfast wrote:I didn't know it was a new rule, but I have been hearing that LP is planning to make their 98s (3 teams) practice together...and will move players up/down accordingly.

That is exactly why the big clubs were so intent on getting the new rule passed, I guess. I hear that the vote had to be taken 3 times and only marginally passed. Good thing the AGM was held in Lubbock (many could not attend) and that all the recreational presidents were there to vote on something for competitive! Rolling Eyes

by Guest 7/29/2013, 4:36 pm

what a load of crap. you get recruited, sign on a d1 team, can't leave and they can at will move you to a lower team? enough is enough parents.....

by a1a 7/29/2013, 4:47 pm

soccerisgood123 wrote:what a load of crap. you get recruited, sign on a d1 team, can't leave and they can at will move you to a lower team? enough is enough parents.....

I think this all depends on how the clubs use it. I can see it helping players. Player Timmy signs with a club to play for their D1 team, but isn't earning much PT. Timmy can get minutes playing for the club's D2 or D3 team. Likewise little Bobby signs with a club to play for their D3 team, but is really playing well and the club's D2 team just had a couple starters injured. Bobby can play with the D2 team and see how he handles the better talent.

If my kid is Timmy, I'd rather have the option of moving him down if he isn't playing rather than sit on the bench.

by vman 7/29/2013, 5:44 pm

passfast wrote:I didn't know it was a new rule, but I have been hearing that LP is planning to make their 98s (3 teams) practice together...and will move players up/down accordingly.

I’ve “heard” that Liverpool’s: 7 ’00 teams, 5 ’01 teams, 7 ’02 teams, 10 ’03 teams, and 7 ’04 teams all going to do ‘DA” same thing… I can’t wait bounce

…

Yes, if you’re going to believe myths

believe all of them. cheers

by bigtex75081 7/30/2013, 7:41 am

Speedy Gonzales wrote:Here is the "new" North Texas rule as quoted by mansfieldunitedfc in the other thread (CAVEAT: I have been unable to find this text on North Texas website but others have said the website just has not been updated yet...Also, emphasis below is mine):

"4.8 Club Pass Players

4.8.1 - Competitive teams will be permitted to have club pass players for league and/or tournament games if specifically allowed by the league or tournament rules. The use of club pass players shall be in accordance with the following:

6. The club pass player must be a competitive player registered with NTSSA to another team within the same club.
7. The club pass player may not play down from their own age group.
8. A release from the team to which the player is rostered is not required. It is up to the club to manage any issues within their teams/parents/coaches relating to club pass players.
9. Club pass players may practice with the team to which they are scheduled to player pass.
10. The team and club pass player must follow the rules of the competition, including but not limited to total numbers of club pass players allowed per game and/or the number of teams with which a player may compete in a day, week or event.

4.8.2 - Any coach/team utilizing a club pass player outside of these rules or the rules of the competition will be considered to have played an ineligible player and will be subject to sanctions/discipline under the rules governing use of an ineligible player."

The first part I highlighted above would seem to be the key to me. League Rules (in this case Classic League) would have to "specifically allow" club pass players. Everything from the other thread indicates that, so far, it has only been approved by vote. If North Texas Rules say Classic League Rules must specifically approve it, I think Classic League needs to get on the ball and put it in their rule book with guidelines (the third highlighted part above) since Clubs must follow the Leagues Rules regarding number of pass players and how many teams/games per day, week, event, etc. In the same vain, I am still at a loss to see how a team with a full roster of 18 can add any pass players without some guidance from Classic League on temporary deactivation of rostered players to allow room under the cap for pass players, unless they will just shift that player to another team in the club for the week he is being replaced by a pass player. Game day rosters still can't exceed 18 players. If I were an independent, I think I would object to the use of any Club Pass player on the roster until the League authorizes it in writing and gives the guidance North Texas requires in the above-quoted rule.

There's no clear definition of the term "Club Pass Players". This verbiage is vague. I think I know what it means but that may be different than someone else's interpretation. It is not clearly defined here.

There are almost no restrictions on the use of this functionality. We see two very simple restrictions… "within the same club" and "may not play down from their own age group" but that's nothing really. Does it give any limits in any way? I don’t think so and I think this is intentionally vague.

Can an '03 that’s rostered on an '02 squad play with one of the club's '03 squads? Does that conflict with "may not play down from their own age group"?

Can almost an entire squad from one team be club passed to another team for a game? For example... If a Texans team from Lubbock can only make it into town for a game with 4 rostered players, can 12 players from another Texans squad club pass to fill in? That avoids a forfeit, which is very good, but is that fair to the opponent that may be trying to avoid relegation? Does that conflict with "within the same club" because they’re from out of town?

What's the minimum number of rostered players that must be present for a game? Could it be 0 of the orginal rostered players and 16 club pass players? Does the coach for that roster even need to be present to coach the game? Or could he be absent and replaced by the coach of those other 16 club pass players?

Could there be an important game upcoming for your team and then you get a phone call that says, "No game this weekend after all... The club's leadership thinks this is a must-win. They're going to have our premium players play this one just in case. Enjoy the weekend off."

by my2cents 7/30/2013, 10:23 am

Once again I think your making too much of this. First off many top teams in the same clubs do not even like each other. There were teams my son always scimmaged that he absolutely would not play either for the coach or with the players. 12 players coming down to win one game is not going to happen. Secondly if it is a must win game then that would be late in the season. NTX freezes roster so the roster change could not be made for the official roster. Tournaments only allow a limited number of guest (unrostered )players. The club player rule if implemented in CL to bring them up to what other leagues do would probably be limited and not a free for all. Premier League already uses it and it is limited to 5 club pass players per season. They can not be added and dropped. They are added to the roster that maxes out at 22. So you have a pool of a maximun of 27 players 18 of which are on the active roster on any given weekend. Any changes to the active roster must be made no later thatn the previous Wednesday.
As previously noted it is usually promising players from lower teams that are being looked at that are given these opportunities. Top players are simply not interested in going down to lower teams.

by bigtex75081 7/30/2013, 10:54 am

my2cents wrote:Once again I think your making too much of this. First off many top teams in the same clubs do not even like each other. There were teams my son always scimmaged that he absolutely would not play either for the coach or with the players. 12 players coming down to win one game is not going to happen. Secondly if it is a must win game then that would be late in the season. NTX freezes roster so the roster change could not be made for the official roster. Tournaments only allow a limited number of guest (unrostered )players. The club player rule if implemented in CL to bring them up to what other leagues do would probably be limited and not a free for all. Premier League already uses it and it is limited to 5 club pass players per season. They can not be added and dropped. They are added to the roster that maxes out at 22. So you have a pool of a maximun of 27 players 18 of which are on the active roster on any given weekend. Any changes to the active roster must be made no later thatn the previous Wednesday.
As previously noted it is usually promising players from lower teams that are being looked at that are given these opportunities. Top players are simply not interested in going down to lower teams.

You're right, I do think I'm making too much of this. My examples were obviously extreme. I just don't like how vague these guidelines are.

I realize the individual leagues will need to define their own rules but we need to wait and see. In my experience though, the clubs are generally very good at finding loopholes in rules and taking advantage of them. In this documentation, the entire thing seems to be one gigantic loophole.

by Soccerinsanity 7/30/2013, 11:08 am

Two cents....what you're saying is logical, but since when has NTX soccer even been based on logic? None of those things are listed in the "new rule?"

by finish1 7/30/2013, 11:38 am

I agree the intentions are to allow players on lower level teams an opportunity to play on a higher level team during the season. I just don't believe that will be the reality when implemented.

From what I've observed in several years of CL is that once a player is assigned to a lower level team within a club, their is very little movement up the ladder from one season to the next. Lots of kids leave clubs for upward mobility. If there is currently very little opportunities for upward player movement between seasons, not convinced having the option during the season is going to happen.

I agree, most likely, a club will send down a player or two to keep a team from being relegated.