US Soccer changes ( Age Pure)

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2015/08/24/18/07/150824-coaching-player-development-initiatives-rel

Article yesterday about US Soccer changes coming that have been discussed on here before. However, it was thought the age pure integration would be started for the U12 age group and the older groups would be grandfathered in. According to this article that is not true and all age groups will move to age pure, even the 15s-18s.

Should shake up D1 byes and spots in Classic when it comes down.

I have trouble grasping the notion that moving a cutoff date will help a player's development. I've read the stuff about relative age effect and all that, but moving a cutoff date is moving a cutoff date. How will that change behavior? The relative age effect will just shift to those with birthdays in different months.

I understand the concepts of simplifying the dates and aligning with the rest of the world, but on the other hand 95+ percent of our youth players will never play against the rest of the world.

I'd rather keep the dates aligned with the school year so you don't have half the players on a team looking for a new team their senior year of high school.

debit wrote:I have trouble grasping the notion that moving a cutoff date will help a player's development.  I've read the stuff about relative age effect and all that, but moving a cutoff date is moving a cutoff date.  How will that change behavior?  The relative age effect will just shift to those with birthdays in different months.

I understand the concepts of simplifying the dates and aligning with the rest of the world, but on the other hand 95+ percent of our youth players will never play against the rest of the world.  

I'd rather keep the dates aligned with the school year so you don't have half the players on a team looking for a new team their senior year of high school.

All good points, and I think the main reason is to align with other countries. But you are right, for 99% of the kids that doesn't matter, although it is also age pure in PA and DA so they would have to make the jump at that point.

The transition from school year to birth year will be the hardest part as teams will have to be broken apart and new teams formed in short notice during a contract open month. This could effect the smaller clubs the most that may not have other teams for kids to shift around on a year up or a year down.

Don't think it will change the team makeups too much for existing teams for the time being... bare with me; theory and only a theory you can flame away.

Reality Age Effect - Fully understand it and have witnessed it. Larger older kids get more attention; more playing time; more confidence from success; yadda-yadda. My BB is a spring 04. Every team he has been on since starting academy at 5 was made up primarily 75-80% fall 03's. Friends I know in other age groups have the same thing; Fall Birth year children dominate their rosters, Castro's '03's have (or at least did) mostly Fall '02's. Leads me to believe (yes their are exceptions) that the best players right now if placed on an AP team would still be Fall birthdays. SO if true; my BB on his current team is playing and has been playing with and against the bulk of the better '03 birth year kids.

As long as he is still progressing and developing why would he want to essentially play down on an Age Pure 04 team? Right now; he wouldn't. If he was 5 still? Yes it would make perfect sense but now; don't see it.

The question becomes; how long will it take for the Reality Age Effect to realign with Jan-April dominance on AP teams and will that effect ever even impact the current older age groups where so many Jan-June have hung up their cleats?

This change is going to be very dramatic for the older age groups. All these US Youth Soccer programs will switch to year pure:
http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/programs/
"Previously, age groups were determined based on players born between Aug. 1 and July 31. The change to calendar year age groups will reflect the calendar year, or Jan. 1 to Dec. 31. Players are still allowed to “play up” or play in an older age group."

I think this will be the key, players will play up to stay with their older team ...

allen04 wrote:

Reality Age Effect - Fully understand it and have witnessed it.  Larger older kids get more attention; more playing time; more confidence from success; yadda-yadda.  My BB is a spring 04.  Every team he has been on since starting academy at 5 was made up primarily 75-80% fall 03's.  Friends I know in other age groups have the same thing; Fall Birth year children dominate their rosters, Castro's '03's have (or at least did) mostly Fall '02's.  Leads me to believe (yes their are exceptions) that the best players right now if placed on an AP team would still be Fall birthdays.  SO if true; my BB on his current team is playing and has been playing with and against the bulk of the better '03 birth year kids.  

The kids most likely to be dominant players on their current non-AP teams are Fall birthdays.   Agree.  And I'm sure there is some marginal benefit from having been the Alpha Dogs for a while.   And maybe some of the younger kids have fallen by the wayside.   But that's not enough to overcome 6 months if they shift the calendar, not at this age.    

You've got it backwards, your kid has not been playing against the stronger 03 kids in his '04 league.   There is nothing magical about Fall birthdays.   The Jan-July 03 birth year kids playing 03 CL (or PA in some cases) are going to be the bulk of the better '03 birth year kids.   Those kids are not only older, but they have been playing the last 6 years against even older kids.   Yes, there will be exceptions.   This is not particular to any age or picking on '04s, its just the way it is.  

My late Dec 02 BY kid has done both, play Calendar Year and play Soccer year.    And its shocking.   Its not skill (necessarily), its just big-ass faster kids running by and over littler kids.   It wasn't always this way, but at the cusp of puberty its a world of difference.

Its not like this is theoretical.   We see the shift from soccer year to calendar year every year at PA at the bigger clubs.  And who forms the backbone of those teams?   From what I've been told, its the older kids.   Those are the better kids.   Right now.   Yes, Castro is choosing to go about it another direction.  Will see how it works out when they play a bunch of adults at FCD.

but they have been playing the last 6 years against even older kids

That's the piece of the equation I didn't consider. My way of thinking; the fall 03's playing on an 04 team have received more benefit than the spring 03's playing on an 03 team and thus when going age pure the fall 03's would be better; I didn't consider the spring 03's level of competition essentially what would be called playing up now going Age Pure.

And who forms the backbone of those teams? From what I've been told, its the older kids.

We are assuming then that those coaches have picked the better soccer players; not just the bigger older/faster soccer players.

allen04 wrote:
 
We are assuming then that those coaches have picked the better soccer players; not just the bigger older/faster soccer players.

What is a better soccer player?    Do we need to put Harrison Bergeron weights on Raheem Sterling so he won't be worth $75M?  

You said the best players on the AP teams would be the younger ones.   Best how?   I thought we all accepted the US Soccer "reality" that the older kids will get picked at younger ages because they are more advanced physically which makes them better today, or are we going with that is bullshit?  

Seems plausible that the younger 03s may have gotten more of a chance to "shine" to date by virtue of being the stars on their 04 teams, but that is not enough to overcome the older 03s if you are picking a team for today, IMO.  Its not like those kids have been eating paste all these years, the very best of the 03s born between Jan-July have also been given a chance to shine against older kids...since there are a zillion teams.   Once you start sorting out the grains and refining the product until you only have the good kids represented, you are going to find that the biggest variable is going to be age.   The great kid born in January is going to have a big advantage on the great kid born in December.   At these ages. Speaking as a parent of a kid born in December.   Who plays with some 03 BY kids who would fare pretty well in 04 CL.  

The players you want on your team the most at U13 are going to be the older kids.   As skilled, bigger, faster.  Whether or not that is right is another story altogether.   But that is how it will work.   Just like it worked the other way on the other calendar.

my $0.02. Cheers

I thought we all accepted the US Soccer "reality" that the older kids will get picked at younger ages because they are more advanced physically which makes them better today, or are we going with that is bullshit?

I am going with years of kids and teams being molded on the older kids getting picked and thus getting the advantage of the Age Effect in the current system isn't going to suddenly disappear overnight because we shifted the months. In a couple years for U13+ yes, obviously. Instantaneously, no.

crazy times ahead, regardless

I am sure my April 00 kid who is currently playing in a 00 team, would NOT want to play down with kids who are up to eight months younger than him as he is used to a higher competitive environment. He is fast and skilled, but smaller than the 99 born kids who are up to 8 months older than him. Essentially the reason why he is not interested a U15 PA team. With this novelty, we may have to consider DA for next soccer year. Unless he can play up with his current team.

I get what you (Allen04) are saying.   And you seem like a smart guy/girl. But, again, isn't all of the old PA team forming the opposite of what you are saying?   When it flips to BY, the advantage instantaneously goes to Jan-July.  Right?

My interpretation on the Age Effect, is that it mostly comes into play when you start really combing through the kids to choose a select few.  Which really doesn't happen that much in NTX pre-PA.   Yeah, its "select" soccer but it ain't that select.   Hell, anybody can hire a private coach.  Play with their kid in the backyard.  Go to camps.  Whatever.  There are some 350 kids playing U11 CL.  Once you get enough kids trying to make a few spots, like for U14 national team training centers, or id2, or ODP or whatever....the older kids get picked,   And those kids get the great opportunities down the road.  And if you aren't older, you will never get the great opportunities.   I don't think anybody is getting great opportunities at U12 just by virtue of being the best kid on the 4th place D1 CL team.  

Shrug.  Well, Castro is putting your theory into effect this year if I understand correctly.   He is a very determined guy, and he doesn't like failure, and he has a lot of very good Fall 02 BY kids.   But I have a wheelbarrow full of Venezualan bolivars and Chinese penny stocks that I will bet on the "older kids".  

Number13 wrote:I don't think anybody is getting great opportunities at U12 just by virtue of being the best kid on the 4th place D1 CL team.

If we played a full schedule I think you would be talking about being the best kid on the 2nd or 3rd place D1 CL team. (just saying)

I don't think that age pure is going to hurt the elites much if they find a team and a coach who values talent over BFS. We might even end up with a bada$$ team of messi players like Doral FC.

Ok so my kid who has a Nov 01 birthday would be "playing up" with the 01 group then? The 01's that have Jan 1, 01 birthdays are nearly a year ahead of him for growth, etc. Makes a lot of difference! Had him in ODP for awhile playing in his birth year and it was a lot harder for him to succeed. Not to mention fruit basket upset for all the teams to get the same birth year. Would guess a majority of independent clubs would have trouble doing that.

forward thinker wrote:Ok so my kid who has a Nov 01 birthday would be "playing up" with the 01 group then?  The 01's that have Jan 1, 01 birthdays are nearly a year ahead of him for growth, etc.  Makes a lot of difference!  Had him in ODP for awhile playing in his birth year and it was a lot harder for him to succeed.  

For sure it would be harder, but in your case he may benefit from the change as up to now he may have used his size to his advantage. Now he will need to start develop foot skills. This is what my son has been doing since a younger age by playing against mostly older kids.

forward thinker wrote:Not to mention fruit basket upset for all the teams to get the same birth year.  Would guess a majority of independent clubs would have trouble doing that.

this is a sure fact. some clubs have very few teams and will not be able to combine teams from different current age groups. big clubs will have a huge advantage.

All this nonsense will make no difference for the elite soccer player, none at all.  Although, I think you will find many, many more players "playing up.", e.g. an AP '04 playing with AP '03.

The reason I am so confused is that this system should be designed around how to identify the elite players and how to development them in an environment that is conducive to having a competitive National Team (competitive will have to be defined).  What they have done is changed the 99.99% because the do a terrible job recognizing the .01%.  

I am curious as to what the best of the best U6, U7, U8 players are going to do.  Does USSF really think that parents are going to want to watch little Jimmy dribble around and score 50 goals a game in 4v4 for 3 years?  If USSF really wants to develop then they would encourage those elite kids at the youngest of ages to compete against those older.  But the way they have this written is contradictory in nature.  Which one is it, should a great player play against kids older so they can develop or does the so called small side development trump playing up an age group or two.  By their logic an 8 year old is not ready to play 7v7, and I won't even get started on the new "no go zones" they are implementing.  

Overall, this change is not needed and will not do anything but upset the apple cart.  What they should be concentrating on is how to educate coaches so they can run a practice in which kids can actually develop.  This is where we are behind the rest of the world.  In practice our 8,9,10 year old kids are treated like they are 4 or 5 and our 12, 13, 14 year olds are treated like they are 8.  

If a teacher can't teach you don't change the way kids should learn, you change the teacher.

Laroja_2012 wrote:I am sure my April 00 kid who is currently playing in a 99 team, would NOT want to play down with kids who are up to eight months younger than him as he is used to a higher competitive environment. He is fast and skilled, but smaller than the 99 born kids who are up to 8 months older than him. Essentially the reason why he is not interested a U15 PA team. With this novelty, we may have to consider DA for next soccer year. Unless he can play up with his current team.

were you talking a PA or DA team or classic league?

omega striker wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:I am sure my April 00 kid who is currently playing in a 99 team, would NOT want to play down with kids who are up to eight months younger than him as he is used to a higher competitive environment. He is fast and skilled, but smaller than the 99 born kids who are up to 8 months older than him. Essentially the reason why he is not interested to a U15 PA team. With this novelty, we may have to consider DA for next soccer year. Unless he can play up with his current team.

were you talking a PA or DA team or classic league?

CL but his team plays in Premier League and National League. So with his current team he is going to play U16, but he would be a U15 PA player. Next year with the changes he will be U16 for both CL and DA. Unless he stays with his current team, then he would be a U17. I am curious to see what the clubs are going to do with kids who have been together for years!

[quote="slrsoccer2"] In practice our 8,9,10 year old kids are treated like they are 4 or 5 and our 12, 13, 14 year olds are treated like they are 8. [quote] 

I don't believe that. I think it depends on the coach/club/team.

Laroja_2012 wrote:

omega striker wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:I am sure my April 00 kid who is currently playing in a 99 team, would NOT want to play down with kids who are up to eight months younger than him as he is used to a higher competitive environment. He is fast and skilled, but smaller than the 99 born kids who are up to 8 months older than him. Essentially the reason why he is not interested to a U15 PA team. With this novelty, we may have to consider DA for next soccer year. Unless he can play up with his current team.

were you talking a PA or DA team or classic league?

CL but his team plays in Premier League and National League. So with his current team he is going to play U16, but he would be a U15 PA player. Next year with the changes he will be U16 for both CL and DA. Unless he stays with his current team, then he would be a U17. I am curious to see what the clubs are going to do with kids who have been together for years!

oh ok I gotcha because a april 00 kid is not a 99' CL player he is a 00'/current U16 player

don't believe that. I think it depends on the coach/club/team.

Fair enough, you should consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Either that or you have not seen many coaches in action.

omega striker wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:

omega striker wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:I am sure my April 00 kid who is currently playing in a 99 team, would NOT want to play down with kids who are up to eight months younger than him as he is used to a higher competitive environment. He is fast and skilled, but smaller than the 99 born kids who are up to 8 months older than him. Essentially the reason why he is not interested to a U15 PA team. With this novelty, we may have to consider DA for next soccer year. Unless he can play up with his current team.

were you talking a PA or DA team or classic league?

CL but his team plays in Premier League and National League. So with his current team he is going to play U16, but he would be a U15 PA player. Next year with the changes he will be U16 for both CL and DA. Unless he stays with his current team, then he would be a U17. I am curious to see what the clubs are going to do with kids who have been together for years!

oh ok I gotcha because a april 00 kid is not a 99' CL player he is a 00'/current U16 player

ops, you are right, he is playing in a '00 team!

forward thinker wrote:

slrsoccer2 wrote: In practice our 8,9,10 year old kids are treated like they are 4 or 5 and our 12, 13, 14 year olds are treated like they are 8.

 

I don't believe that. I think it depends on the coach/club/team.

It mostly depends on the team level. I observed a PPL team practice close to our D1 team and the level of the drills they were doing was very different, they were still practicing foot basic skills, and all drills were done at a much slower pace. The same when my son moved from a bad D1 team to a very good D1 team, the pace became much higher.

The fight in the UNITED STATES is trying to get the best athletes at the ages of 4,5 &6 to choose soccer over basketball, baseball, lacrosse, hockey, football. Every sport in the UNITED STATES aligns similar to grades - So little boys may choose another sport to play with his schoolmates instead of soccer and become a college point guard instead of a stud soccer player. Jurgen (from Germany) and Tab (from Uruguay) should better understand the AMERICAN sports culture before making important decisions.

And now they've made a giant mess for club soccer teams to scramble to remake teams. You are completely mistaken if you think the majority of spring birthdays will play up - It may happen for one year (MAYBE) but it won't last. The decision to play up or not is a classic prisoner's dilemma game theory situation. It's rationale to NOT play up and parents will quickly make that decision for their kids. I cannot believe that Jurgen and Tab with their high school educations are running US soccer!

As it is today my son has played with boys that were 2 school grades higher than him. (We started him late) His birthday is 07/23 meaning he is as youngest on his team by far. When he was younger, say 6,7 and 8, it was a big difference physical/mental maturity. Now that he is 12 and as he getting older it seems to have started to leveled out, although he is still lacking in size.

My son is just an average everyday player, he is not PA, DA, CL or any other elite acronym and I think he would have benefited by playing with kids closer to his own size and age.

It's just a cutt-off date that's being moved back. You still will have older and stronger boys but now they'll be the January-April bdays, the September-December bdays will now be the younger boys on an age pure team. If the clubs go age pure and not play up.....this change will mainly be felt by the current older boys (Aug-Dec bdays) since they would have to play/compete vs. older boys that are currently on an older team. The current younger boys (Jan-July bdays), would have an advantage moving down or to an age pure team since they have been playing the older boys in our current system. I'm not sure what this would do for development since in any system you'll still have boys that can be up to 11+ months older. With this said, the elite player will still be an elite player no matter what month their bday falls since they usually play a year up and an on rare occasions, 2yrs up. This has the makings of being a mess, imo.