Does anyone ever ask the question?

by BTMason 9/25/2011, 6:58 pm

I am just curious and will not name teams but is anyone ever curious if everyone plays by the rules when it comes to age?

I am a coach, so I often turn a blind eye and try not to think about if players are "really" the age they are supposed to be, and take the stance if they are playing down obviously they are less than superstar.

For example today I saw a U12 team with 3 different players taller than both their parents and with facial hair and facial definition that I think would be in the less than 1 percentile for the age group.

I have been seeing things like this from time to time, and to be honest in my short experience since coming here from TN, what I have seen it is more with the independents.

Do any of you parents or other coaches ever see this and wonder?? I know we all see a large kid from time to time and think .... damn, what did you drive to the game today. lol, However, most times you see the child later and his parents are large people as well and it is easy to see why he is towering over everyone.

But... There are those occasions where all the easy disqualifiers just dont exist.

Not that this matters for anything other than integrity, I am just curious what you all have experienced.

by Soccer27 9/25/2011, 7:08 pm

Yea coach I have seen the also and just like u say it is from independent teams.

by Rocketeer 9/25/2011, 7:21 pm

BTMason wrote:I am just curious and will not name teams but is anyone ever curious if everyone plays by the rules when it comes to age?

I am a coach, so I often turn a blind eye and try not to think about if players are "really" the age they are supposed to be, and take the stance if they are playing down obviously they are less than superstar.

For example today I saw a U12 team with 3 different players taller than both their parents and with facial hair and facial definition that I think would be in the less than 1 percentile for the age group.

I have been seeing things like this from time to time, and to be honest in my short experience since coming here from TN, what I have seen it is more with the independents.

Do any of you parents or other coaches ever see this and wonder?? I know we all see a large kid from time to time and think .... damn, what did you drive to the game today. lol, However, most times you see the child later and his parents are large people as well and it is easy to see why he is towering over everyone.

But... There are those occasions where all the easy disqualifiers just dont exist.

Not that this matters for anything other than integrity, I am just curious what you all have experienced.

What is the procedure ? to question a kid on another teams age, how does one do this ?
This is happening in the soccer leagues and a valid concern.

What are soccer associations doing about this ?

by Soccer27 9/25/2011, 7:24 pm

My understanding that is the purpose of the roster but if that is not being checked then it is easy to sneak in another player who might be a year or two older.

by BTMason 9/25/2011, 7:29 pm

Rocketeer wrote:
BTMason wrote:I am just curious and will not name teams but is anyone ever curious if everyone plays by the rules when it comes to age?

I am a coach, so I often turn a blind eye and try not to think about if players are "really" the age they are supposed to be, and take the stance if they are playing down obviously they are less than superstar.

For example today I saw a U12 team with 3 different players taller than both their parents and with facial hair and facial definition that I think would be in the less than 1 percentile for the age group.

I have been seeing things like this from time to time, and to be honest in my short experience since coming here from TN, what I have seen it is more with the independents.

Do any of you parents or other coaches ever see this and wonder?? I know we all see a large kid from time to time and think .... damn, what did you drive to the game today. lol, However, most times you see the child later and his parents are large people as well and it is easy to see why he is towering over everyone.

But... There are those occasions where all the easy disqualifiers just dont exist.

Not that this matters for anything other than integrity, I am just curious what you all have experienced.

What is the procedure ? to question a kid on another teams age, how does one do this ?
This is happening in the soccer leagues and a valid concern.

What are soccer associations doing about this ?

According to NTSSA there is a zero tolerance towards things like this.

However, you raise a question perhaps even more valid than mine. How would you prove one way or the other?

I am sure you all have supplied the information that I have asked my parents. Birth certificates seem to be the ID of choice and of course they are given Gotsoccer IDs but that information could be entered erroneously.

There seems to be a foundational flaw in the system if the powers that be have any desire to police the issue.

by BTMason 9/25/2011, 7:34 pm

I read here often and enjoy the board, and we occasionally have the parent that gets a little hyper-competitive.

Still, I just dont have the desire to win badly enough to ask my child to play "down" to give a team an advantage.

If this is really happening, these coaches and parents should be ashamed of what they are teaching their children.

The soccer pitch is not a representation of WAR and shouldnt be a place to teach a win at all costs mentality... sad!

by Seinfeld4 9/25/2011, 7:38 pm

I watched several U 13 games this past Thursday. I saw several players that I questioned if they were playing in the correct age group.

by R1 9/25/2011, 7:53 pm

Some of the kids probably are too old, what can you do?

Its a risk some probably take, but its not new. You hear about it with professional athletes from time to time. Especially ones from countries where they don't keep great records. You find out after they become professionals what their real birth date was due to reporters with resources going to their birthplace countries and pulling the actual real documents. It then gets reported, but its way past any time to do anything about it. For most people who do this, you probably won't ever know.

by just4fun 9/25/2011, 8:54 pm

R1 wrote:Some of the kids probably are too old, what can you do?

Its a risk some probably take, but its not new. You hear about it with professional athletes from time to time. Especially ones from countries where they don't keep great records. You find out after they become professionals what their real birth date was due to reporters with resources going to their birthplace countries and pulling the actual real documents. It then gets reported, but its way past any time to do anything about it. For most people who do this, you probably won't ever know.

You hit the nail on the head. My job puts me in almost daily contact with people who have entered this country illegally. They come here and want to enroll BB in school, their friend or cousin, already here, has a birth certificate from the US, and he is close in age, only a year or so younger and the friend is more than willing to help out a friend in need. Three years later when BB wants to enroll in soccer and they asked for a birth certificate guess which age group he is placed in. It can also work the other way, thats why you see some kids that you just assume are playing up. I don't think many of them start out doing it with the intention of cheating or playing down in soccer but thats just the way it turns out.

by Rocketeer 9/25/2011, 9:04 pm

Well if its a foundational flaw, and the soccer associations do not wanna police it, then we (the rest of us that play fair) have to deal with it.

If its about birth certificates being miss used and not getting caught, then we have to deal with it.

I do not have any other answer or solution.

I rather have a fair playing field but I always get laughed at with the remark "Who said life is fair?"

by tigre4now 9/26/2011, 1:22 pm

I might be wrong but I think that you can challenge a teams roster. You just have to put up the money. There's always going to be excuses some legitimate others are not so much when you have lost a game. My god son is a 00 and has leveled out with the rest of hi peers but as a u9 - u10 teams cried foul all the time. As soon as we said put up the money they took it back and decided to just argue about it. His dad and him are the same height right now. Well unless his the neighbors kid and not his. Shocked

by Seinfeld4 9/26/2011, 1:26 pm

just4fun wrote:
R1 wrote:Some of the kids probably are too old, what can you do?

Its a risk some probably take, but its not new. You hear about it with professional athletes from time to time. Especially ones from countries where they don't keep great records. You find out after they become professionals what their real birth date was due to reporters with resources going to their birthplace countries and pulling the actual real documents. It then gets reported, but its way past any time to do anything about it. For most people who do this, you probably won't ever know.

You hit the nail on the head. My job puts me in almost daily contact with people who have entered this country illegally. They come here and want to enroll BB in school, their friend or cousin, already here, has a birth certificate from the US, and he is close in age, only a year or so younger and the friend is more than willing to help out a friend in need. Three years later when BB wants to enroll in soccer and they asked for a birth certificate guess which age group he is placed in. It can also work the other way, thats why you see some kids that you just assume are playing up. I don't think many of them start out doing it with the intention of cheating or playing down in soccer but thats just the way it turns out.

That is an interesting perspective. I had never considered that. Thank you for sharing.

by SoccerGenius99 9/26/2011, 3:09 pm

Seinfeld4 wrote:I watched several U 13 games this past Thursday. I saw several players that I questioned if they were playing in the correct age group.

There are some shady things going on with the u-13 age group. i know for a fact, alot of the hispanic teams are using older players to play down. More will come to light of this in the next month or so. Wait and see.

by Seinfeld4 9/26/2011, 3:31 pm

SoccerGenius99 wrote:
Seinfeld4 wrote:I watched several U 13 games this past Thursday. I saw several players that I questioned if they were playing in the correct age group.

There are some shady things going on with the u-13 age group. i know for a fact, alot of the hispanic teams are using older players to play down. More will come to light of this in the next month or so. Wait and see.

I know a lot of people including myself believe that. How do you think it can be proven?

by TFC 02 BOYS 9/26/2011, 3:53 pm

Seinfeld4 wrote:
SoccerGenius99 wrote:
Seinfeld4 wrote:I watched several U 13 games this past Thursday. I saw several players that I questioned if they were playing in the correct age group.

There are some shady things going on with the u-13 age group. i know for a fact, alot of the hispanic teams are using older players to play down. More will come to light of this in the next month or so. Wait and see.

I know a lot of people including myself believe that. How do you think it can be proven?

by laterdays 9/26/2011, 4:03 pm

SoccerGenius99 wrote:
Seinfeld4 wrote:I watched several U 13 games this past Thursday. I saw several players that I questioned if they were playing in the correct age group.

There are some shady things going on with the u-13 age group. i know for a fact, alot of the hispanic teams are using older players to play down. More will come to light of this in the next month or so. Wait and see.

Will any investigation be done into the other age groups as well or just u13? I've seen this as well this year in u12.

by soccerpapa 9/26/2011, 4:18 pm

Sorry to say they will not be caught. They are getting very sophisticated and are well prepared. The kids memorize their “birthday” and “name”. Had an instance in a tournament where there was a challenge, they produced the birth certificate with an ok date… however, there was a stamp on it from the hospital with a date a year earlier. So they changed the date on the certificate, but forgot to change the date on the stamp, otherwise, he would not have been caught.
It happens in independents because those coaches don’t have anything to lose if they get caught and take risks. Plus, as we play clubs over and over, we get to know the players. These players from independents are a little less well known and usually do stay within the same team.
The only way, would be if disgruntle parents from within the team would blow the whistle on own team. That’s very unlikely to happen.

by AND! 9/26/2011, 10:54 pm

FIFA had this problem until they started age testing. It's no way they (NTSA) will start age testing every kid that plays classic league, so stop whining about the players that play down and look at it as a benefit to your kid. Its not just Independent teams either. I know kids that were not born in the US that play for TOP clubs that are playing DOWN also. Most competitive parents would love for their kid to be able to play up, so look at your kid as play up when playing against "those kids". Both of my Boys play up so they can get faster, tougher, more experience competition, so you should feel lucky that these kids break the rules because it helps your kids and not themselves. Stop worrying about winning now so you can be "winning" in the future.

by Rocketeer 9/26/2011, 11:30 pm

AND! wrote:FIFA had this problem until they started age testing. It's no way they (NTSA) will start age testing every kid that plays classic league, so stop whining about the players that play down and look at it as a benefit to your kid. Its not just Independent teams either. I know kids that were not born in the US that play for TOP clubs that are playing DOWN also. Most competitive parents would love for their kid to be able to play up, so look at your kid as play up when playing against "those kids". Both of my Boys play up so they can get faster, tougher, more experience competition, so you should feel lucky that these kids break the rules because it helps your kids and not themselves. Stop worrying about winning now so you can be "winning" in the future.

Losing does not build confidence, and it is hard enough when everyone is the same age. Now throw in a ringer (someone older) and confidence of most kids are shot, cause they compare themselves to the skills of a RINGER, not knowing that those kids are older.

I for one do not feel lucky that those kids are cheating and playing down. Neither does my kid.

by soccerrus2 9/27/2011, 6:30 am

AND! wrote:FIFA had this problem until they started age testing. It's no way they (NTSA) will start age testing every kid that plays classic league, so stop whining about the players that play down and look at it as a benefit to your kid. Its not just Independent teams either. I know kids that were not born in the US that play for TOP clubs that are playing DOWN also. Most competitive parents would love for their kid to be able to play up, so look at your kid as play up when playing against "those kids". Both of my Boys play up so they can get faster, tougher, more experience competition, so you should feel lucky that these kids break the rules because it helps your kids and not themselves. Stop worrying about winning now so you can be "winning" in the future.

FIFA only used this for U17 competition because of the Nigerian teams were notorius for sending U20 and U23 teams to play in the U17 WC. The test is an MRI on the growth plate in the wrist. It determines if you are older than 17 (when it normally fuses) or younger. You couldn't use this test for younger age groups.

As far as let them play down? Why have rules at all?

by anselansel 9/27/2011, 7:17 am

"Most competitive parents would love for their kid to be able to play up, so look at your kid as play up when playing against "those kids". Both of my Boys play up so they can get faster, tougher, more experience competition, so you should feel lucky that these kids break the rules because it helps your kids and not themselves. Stop worrying about winning now so you can be "winning" in the future."

behold the rationalizations of a CHEATER..............

by finish1 9/27/2011, 7:27 am

It's an extreme opinion from the fringe, but not totally off the mark. His point is valid in regards to training to play the teams with "those kids." I understand losing does not build confidence, but to grow as a player you have to take on tougher competition and learn to adjust.

by anselansel 9/27/2011, 7:33 am

"It's an extreme opinion from the fringe, but not totally off the mark. His point is valid in regards to training to play the teams with "those kids." I understand losing does not build confidence, but to grow as a player you have to take on tougher competition and learn to adjust."

no, it's not. when you intentionally play disqualified players for the purpose of an edge to win, that's called cheating. the team should be disqualified as an example that cheating has it's consequences.

remember-"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

by finish1 9/27/2011, 7:40 am

Winners usually cheat and cheaters usually win. Life isn't fair. Adjust your game and don't give up. Good people can finish first, you have to try harder. Gotta go now. Time to slay cheating dragons... Very Happy

by my2cents 9/27/2011, 9:01 am

Two points to add here.
1. Being a parent of a few boys that were tall at a young age , one that was very tall early, I can tell you this does not happen as much as many believe. It does but it is rare. Most of them are just early to mature.
What I find very sad is not ONE person mentioned the possible safety risks of the physical mismatch caused by these supposed older players. All the complaints are about winning, winning ,winning! Its not fair. Waaa, Waaa Waaa!!! . That is why no one listens to the complaints. Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes over losing a game to a bigger team.