New NTX Rule - All Smaller Club Players Should Know

elchepo wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

wembleys wrote:As a parent, I would think twice before going with a big club... Since now they roster has increased to 18 plus as many pass players there can be...

This is bs too because even if the rule did apply to league play, which it doesn't, CL rosters are capped at 18 for most age groups.  If you sign 16 players, the most you could "Club Pass" is 2.  Most teams nowdays are rostering the max players to pad their pocketbooks so they could Club Pass exactly ZERO.

you think so? this is how it's done for State Cup....

Very Important Instructions For Teams Using
Club Pass Players

• U13 & up may utilize the Club Pass

• Club Pass player must be a registered North Texas player with the same club.

• Teams using the Club Pass Players may have a roster size of 22 players

• Releases are not required.

• You will use the ID card from their present team

That's State Cup which has a maximum roster of 22 according to the tournament rules.  Classic League is capped at 18.  Two different animals.  Even if you are talking about State Cup, with a league roster of 18 the most Club Pass players you could have for State Cup is 4.  The point was simply that you cannot have a roster of 18 and "as many pass players there can be." Rosters are capped. If we are talking about tournament play, someone explain to me how this is any different than guest players. Classic League allows 18 on the roster, but XYZ tournament allows 22 so you can go out and get 4 guest players. Club Pass just makes that easier without the formality of releases from the current team. And why should you need a release within the same Club? I guess you all would be perfectly happy if this rule did not exist and Texans A had to get a release from Texans B to allow Johnny Superstar to guest play in XYZ Tournament? NOT!! You'd still find something to bitch and moan about.

The Boss wrote:

elchepo wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

wembleys wrote:As a parent, I would think twice before going with a big club... Since now they roster has increased to 18 plus as many pass players there can be...

This is bs too because even if the rule did apply to league play, which it doesn't, CL rosters are capped at 18 for most age groups.  If you sign 16 players, the most you could "Club Pass" is 2.  Most teams nowdays are rostering the max players to pad their pocketbooks so they could Club Pass exactly ZERO.

you think so? this is how it's done for State Cup....

Very Important Instructions For Teams Using
Club Pass Players

• U13 & up may utilize the Club Pass

• Club Pass player must be a registered North Texas player with the same club.

• Teams using the Club Pass Players may have a roster size of 22 players

• Releases are not required.

• You will use the ID card from their present team

oh no you didnt.......     

im thinking speedy is just defending his big club honor   

Wouldn't know about the club but I know our specific team has never used Club Pass. So, you're wrong Springsteen. It just gets old the amount of whining that goes on about stuff that has been that way and people only just now find out about.

Speaking of new rules, have you heard about this new ridiculous player card rule that is going to devastate the independents. It's sooooo drafted in favor of the big clubs. The little independents can no longer get big brother to play on Little Johnny's team to get a much needed win. It's so unfair and totally designed for the big clubs to maintain their stranglehold. 

Speedy Gonzales wrote:Speaking of new rules, have you heard about this new ridiculous player card rule that is going to devastate the independents.  It's sooooo drafted in favor of the big clubs.  The little independents can no longer get big brother to play on Little Johnny's team to get a much needed win.  It's so unfair and totally designed for the big clubs to maintain their stranglehold. 

yep, the indie's will still get to bring their 16 year olds to u12 like they always have.....

I think I've figured out what prompts the "you're whining" posts. When a string is too interesting to ignore but the argument doesn't favor the side of the fence you're standing on... that's when the "you're whining" posts start to pop up.

I say let's talk allllllll the way through this thing.  Let's get everyone a firm understanding of the new rule and its potential impacts.  If we don't, for the next few years we're going to regularly see strings started on this forum that start with "Can somebody please explain the club pass rule to me?  My BB's team just..."

So let's start from when and where was the new rule approved. And does this rule apply to CL games? Has it been approved by CL?
Since for sure the rule was there for the State Cup, did anyone notice the big clubs bring 22 players to the games during State Cup?

Change needs to begin with each and everyone of us, until that day we will just be chasing the end.  Here is an awesome little video clip, life is a dance and we need to enjoy the moment and stop living for the end.  Winning isnt everything.

Winning isn't everything for some but it certainly does not seem to be that way for the majority.

Laroja_2012 wrote:So let's start from when and where was the new rule approved. And does this rule apply to CL games? Has it been approved by CL?
Since for sure the rule was there for the State Cup, did anyone notice the big clubs bring 22 players to the games during State Cup?

As to your first question, the original post said it was a North Texas rule but I haven't even been able to confirm that through their Bylaws and Rules. 4.8 of North Texas rules is about Recreational Play. I think my very first post on this thread asked exactly your second question. Someone, anyone, show me proof that CL has approved this in their rules because I sure haven't seen it and the text quoted from the "new rule" specifically requires league rules to say Club Pass is acceptable. Still, no one has been able to provide any credible proof that it applies to league play. As to your last question, I don't recall any 22 man rosters for State Cup at least in the U14 bracket. Much to do about nothing, in my opinion.

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:So let's start from when and where was the new rule approved. And does this rule apply to CL games? Has it been approved by CL?
Since for sure the rule was there for the State Cup, did anyone notice the big clubs bring 22 players to the games during State Cup?

As to your first question, the original post said it was a North Texas rule but I haven't even been able to confirm that through their Bylaws and Rules.  4.8 of North Texas rules is about Recreational Play.  I think my very first post on this thread asked exactly your second question.  Someone, anyone, show me proof that CL has approved this in their rules because I sure haven't seen it and the text quoted from the "new rule" specifically requires league rules to say Club Pass is acceptable.  Still, no one has been able to provide any credible proof that it applies to league play.  As to your last question, I don't recall any 22 man rosters for State Cup at least in the U14 bracket. Much to do about nothing, in my opinion.

To the best of my knowledge the change is, that this rule will apply to CL games this season. Looks like the rules and other documentation have not been updated or posted yet...

elchepo wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:So let's start from when and where was the new rule approved. And does this rule apply to CL games? Has it been approved by CL?
Since for sure the rule was there for the State Cup, did anyone notice the big clubs bring 22 players to the games during State Cup?

As to your first question, the original post said it was a North Texas rule but I haven't even been able to confirm that through their Bylaws and Rules.  4.8 of North Texas rules is about Recreational Play.  I think my very first post on this thread asked exactly your second question.  Someone, anyone, show me proof that CL has approved this in their rules because I sure haven't seen it and the text quoted from the "new rule" specifically requires league rules to say Club Pass is acceptable.  Still, no one has been able to provide any credible proof that it applies to league play.  As to your last question, I don't recall any 22 man rosters for State Cup at least in the U14 bracket. Much to do about nothing, in my opinion.

To the best of my knowledge the change is, that this rule will apply to CL games this season. Looks like the rules and other documentation have not been updated or posted yet...

Then I'm confused about where the text of the rule in the original post came from.  A link would be nice.  I did find a link about the history and FAQs about Club Pass.  It was first implemented by US Youth Soccer for the National Championship Series in 2011.  http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/1/3/2011-2012_NCS_Policy_FAQ.pdf

It was then authorized for use in North Texas for the 2013 State Cup. Still can't find anything on its approval for Classic League.

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

elchepo wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:

Laroja_2012 wrote:So let's start from when and where was the new rule approved. And does this rule apply to CL games? Has it been approved by CL?
Since for sure the rule was there for the State Cup, did anyone notice the big clubs bring 22 players to the games during State Cup?

As to your first question, the original post said it was a North Texas rule but I haven't even been able to confirm that through their Bylaws and Rules.  4.8 of North Texas rules is about Recreational Play.  I think my very first post on this thread asked exactly your second question.  Someone, anyone, show me proof that CL has approved this in their rules because I sure haven't seen it and the text quoted from the "new rule" specifically requires league rules to say Club Pass is acceptable.  Still, no one has been able to provide any credible proof that it applies to league play.  As to your last question, I don't recall any 22 man rosters for State Cup at least in the U14 bracket. Much to do about nothing, in my opinion.

To the best of my knowledge the change is, that this rule will apply to CL games this season. Looks like the rules and other documentation have not been updated or posted yet...

Then I'm confused about where the text of the rule in the original post came from.  A link would be nice.  I did find a link about the history and FAQs about Club Pass.  It was first implemented by US Youth Soccer for the National Championship Series in 2011.  http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/1/3/2011-2012_NCS_Policy_FAQ.pdf

It was then authorized for use in  North Texas for the 2013 State Cup.  Still can't find anything on its approval for Classic League.

The text comes from the rule change that was proposed and passed this past Sunday in Lubbock, TX at the NTX Annual General Meeting.  The vote passed by exactly the simple majority needed of those voting members present.  15 bigger associations "for" vs. 21 smaller associations "against"... and the bigger associations had more votes to outweigh the smaller.  I found it interesting that Chamber Classic, Plano, and Arlington all voted in favor of it.  Before the vote, both Classic and Plano professed their support for the passing of this new rule.

The leagues now have the ability to use Club Passes... I guess we wait to see if/when they choose to do it, and what their specific guidelines will be on using it.  It could be as early as this season/year.  It was recommended by the board that all club teams put their intention to use/not to use the club passes into their fact sheet before signing day so that parents know what they are signing up for.  That said, and with most teams already signed, I will be surprised if they do put it in the CL rules this year.

OK, I guess I will jump in here. This rule was passed by NTSSA this past weekend at the AGM. As a voting member I was present for the election. There was a lot of debate (about 2 hours in all) around this subject. In my 10 years of attending the NTSSA AGMs, this was the closest vote I have ever seen and we even had to vote three times before everyone was satisfied. The motion passed something like 76 to 69. Other non USYSA leagues have had this rule in past and teams generally skirted the rule anyway. What this allows is a player to play on another team within the same club without having to get a release from original team. It does still state they can only compete in one event each weekend in same age group.

This as well as the other two rule changes that went with it were proposed by Ms Campbell of the NTSSA board. She did so because other soccer organizations (US Club for example) already allow this.

Chamber Classic and Lake Highlands went on record that if passed they would be implementing this change this season. They stated they would add a rule within own organization that they will not allow a player to play down with the Club Pass (This I am not holding my breath on). Plano and Arlington stated they were going to wait to see how it works with Classic and Lake Highlands. All 4 "competitive" leagues were very strong proponents and fought hard for this to pass.

Even though my son plays for Texans, I actually used my 3 votes to vote against the measure as I felt it was too vague and could be abused. My concern is one of the big 4 being able to bring Elite Academy and pre Academy players onto lower ranking teams to help in tournaments and to help with stopping a team being relegated to lower division.

I hope this helps in some way to understand what is being discussed.

This adds to the problem of validating that only eligible players participate in a match andwill create confusion. Bad enough that you don't know if the players in the game are the players on the roster. Heard more allegations about unrostered and/or overage players in games this past year than ever, and recall the 3 teams that were caught cheating in last year's qualifiers. Need ID cards for ALL players. A club pass will be an ID card. Pull the trigger, Classic, and require cards for all players.

SoccerMomma4: Thanks for the clarification but I still don't see this being the dark beast that everyone thinks it is.  Classic League rosters are still capped at 18.  If you've got a full roster, you can't Club Pass a player?  The only way teams use this is if they have a thin roster thinned even more by injuries, vacations, etc. You still have to have have room under your 18 player limit.  Other North Texas rules prevent clubs from releasing players mid-season unless player initiated so clubs won't be able to cut rostered players to make room for Johnny Futbol as a Club Pass. Some will call me naive and say the clubs will find ways around the rules and maybe they will but I just don't see the potential for wide-spread abuse, especially if what Fanofson says about not playing more than one game in a weekend and not being able to play down a division are both true. Am I way off-base here?

Speedy Gonzales wrote:SoccerMomma4: Thanks for the clarification but I still don't see this being the dark beast that everyone thinks it is.  Classic League rosters are still capped at 18.  If you've got a full roster, you can't Club Pass a player?  The only way teams use this is if they have a thin roster thinned even more by injuries, vacations, etc. You still have to have have room under your 18 player limit.  Other North Texas rules prevent clubs from releasing players mid-season unless player initiated so clubs won't be able to cut rostered players to make room for Johnny Futbol as a Club Pass. Some will call me naive and say the clubs will find ways around the rules and maybe they will but I just don't see the potential for wide-spread abuse, especially if what Fanofson says about not playing more than one game in a weekend and not being able to play down a division are both true. Am I way off-base here?

yes you are.

The leagues can pass their rules, and interpret them any way they like, and there isn't much you can do about it. Read the rules, if you don't like the way your league interprets their own rules, usually you can appeal it . . . to the league itself . . . do you think they will find against themselves? (I've been down that road, even when their interpretation goes counter to the actual wording of their rules, they go by their "interpretation").

If you read the rules further, if anyone ever decides to try and file any kind of legal action about any rule or violation of a rule, you are kicked out of the league during the pendancy of that action - so no relief there either (like you can wait 2 years for a court to hear your case - while you are suspended from the league).

So in other words, you go with what the leagues say the rules are, whether the rules really actually say it or not, the league's interpretation of the rules govern. So if they want to adopt the club pass rule, and allow more than 18, or more than 22, because it is "implied" within the "club pass" rule - then that is what they will do. Not a thing you can do about it - if that is what they want.

I am curious what the leagues want, and why, since I wasn't there for these hearings. For you two that posted, you seem to have some insight since you seem to have been a part of it. What is the consensus of what the big competitive leagues want out of this rule change?

Big brother helps little brother stay on D1... Or have winning teams all the time. Since independents don't have brothers, they are screwed...

wembleys wrote:

Speedy Gonzales wrote:SoccerMomma4: Thanks for the clarification but I still don't see this being the dark beast that everyone thinks it is.  Classic League rosters are still capped at 18.  If you've got a full roster, you can't Club Pass a player?  The only way teams use this is if they have a thin roster thinned even more by injuries, vacations, etc. You still have to have have room under your 18 player limit.  Other North Texas rules prevent clubs from releasing players mid-season unless player initiated so clubs won't be able to cut rostered players to make room for Johnny Futbol as a Club Pass. Some will call me naive and say the clubs will find ways around the rules and maybe they will but I just don't see the potential for wide-spread abuse, especially if what Fanofson says about not playing more than one game in a weekend and not being able to play down a division are both true. Am I way off-base here?

yes you are.

Prove it.  State Cup said rosters are capped at 22 even with Club Pass.  Classic League's rules say rosters are capped at 18, which would also presumably include Club Pass. People who were at the meeting have spoken and said CL specifically vowed to not allow a player to play more than one game in a weekend so that eliminates (in most situations) a D1 player (or DII or DIII Player) from playing with a struggling D1 team.  Unless you're telling me 1st place Texans is going to allow its superstar to sit out of his own team's game to help out struggling last place sister Texans, which I find hard to believe.  Can't use a Pre-Academy player as a Club Pass unless that player just so happens to also be registered with North Texas (90% of them aren't; those that are are already dual rostered with a CL team anyway so not a Club Pass).  Just because you say it without explanation doesn't make it so.

It seems to me for all the whining and complaining about this, it is just aligning North Texas with the rest of the country in regards to the use of Club Pass for league games. Here's a partial list of other soccer Associations that allow it:
Indiana, Georgia, Oklahoma, Washington, Wisconsin, Virginia, SOUTH TEXAS, Eastern Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Northern California, Southern California, Northern Utah... These are just the ones I found with a quick Google search. Most of these associations have rules about temporary "deactivation" of currently rostered players to allow a Club Pass player, all have limits on the number of Pass players in any given game, and all specifically say the roster size is still capped at league rule requirements.

SoccerMomma4: Thanks for the clarification but I still don't see this being the dark beast that everyone thinks it is. Classic League rosters are still capped at 18. If you've got a full roster, you can't Club Pass a player? The only way teams use this is if they have a thin roster thinned even more by injuries, vacations, etc. You still have to have have room under your 18 player limit. Other North Texas rules prevent clubs from releasing players mid-season unless player initiated so clubs won't be able to cut rostered players to make room for Johnny Futbol as a Club Pass. Some will call me naive and say the clubs will find ways around the rules and maybe they will but I just don't see the potential for wide-spread abuse, especially if what Fanofson says about not playing more than one game in a weekend and not being able to play down a division are both true. Am I way off-base here?



Speedy,
It is not limited to one game a weekend but one event. A tournament would be an event which could be 5 or 6 games. Keep in mind this has been in affect for things like president's cup and Hurst United won that recently without a club pass player where as many of the teams they played against did have these. NTSSA is not inventing this animal they are just making legal in a way that affects us more than in past. As I stated before I had to actually vote for this and I was torn trying to make my decision. I understand the principle behind what they are trying to do but in end the potential for abuse outweighed what I thought would be the benefit. If they had put in just a few safeguards then I would have voted in favor.

R1 wrote:The leagues can pass their rules, and interpret them any way they like, and there isn't much you can do about it.  Read the rules, if you don't like the way your league interprets their own rules, usually you can appeal it . . . to the league itself . . . do you think they will find against themselves? (I've been down that road, even when their interpretation goes counter to the actual wording of their rules, they go by their "interpretation").    

If you read the rules further, if anyone ever decides to try and file any kind of legal action about any rule or violation of a rule, you are kicked out of the league during the pendancy of that action - so no relief there either (like you can wait 2 years for a court to hear your case - while you are suspended from the league).  

So in other words, you go with what the leagues say the rules are,  whether the rules really actually say it or not, the league's interpretation of the rules govern.  So if they want to adopt the club pass rule, and allow more than 18, or more than 22, because it is "implied" within the "club pass" rule - then that is what they will do.  Not a thing you can do about it - if that is what they want.

I am curious what the leagues want, and why, since I wasn't there for these hearings.  For you two that posted, you seem to have some insight since you seem to have been a part of it.  What is the consensus of what the big competitive leagues want out of this rule change?  

Classic, Lake Highlands, Plano and Arlington all stated it was for competitive reasons so the can compete with non USYSA/NTSSA playing leagues. Because US Club and a few other associations have very little restrictions and rules their nationwide membership is rising where the memberships in these 4 are starting to drop. They state teams who once played here, when asked why they chose another league it was because of the lack of these restrictions. AS much as the parents on here complain about coaches having too much control and authority think of a league where those coaches and drop players at will or sign as many players as they would like. I have a friend whose son plays select is TN. They are US Club. They are u14 with 26 players under contract for 1 team the best 16 go to the game each week. True they pay much less than I do but if coach wants to sign 100 players he can.
They use example where two teams in same club one only has 1 goalie who gets hurt/ill the other team might have two goalies, they can send the player over to replace the hurt/ill player then return to original team when ready. The new rules also clean up some things that were being done previously but were actually against NTSSA rules such as let's say there is an 03 team that practices on Monday nights and another that practices on Tuesday night. If a player on team A has to miss his practice due to school/ family event etc they can freely go to practice with team B. Previously this was against the rules you could only practice with the team you were signed to unless you were guest playing in a tournament which required paperwork. Yes people will point out clubs like FC Dallas and Texans have done this already but they used the Club Pass situation to open that up which I do like that idea.

Fanofson wrote:SoccerMomma4: Thanks for the clarification but I still don't see this being the dark beast that everyone thinks it is.  Classic League rosters are still capped at 18.  If you've got a full roster, you can't Club Pass a player?  The only way teams use this is if they have a thin roster thinned even more by injuries, vacations, etc. You still have to have have room under your 18 player limit.  Other North Texas rules prevent clubs from releasing players mid-season unless player initiated so clubs won't be able to cut rostered players to make room for Johnny Futbol as a Club Pass. Some will call me naive and say the clubs will find ways around the rules and maybe they will but I just don't see the potential for wide-spread abuse, especially if what Fanofson says about not playing more than one game in a weekend and not being able to play down a division are both true. Am I way off-base here?



Speedy,
It is not limited to one game a weekend but one event. A tournament would be an event which could be 5 or 6 games. Keep in mind this has been in affect for things like president's cup and Hurst United won that recently without a club pass player where as many of the teams they played against did have these. NTSSA is not inventing this animal they are just making legal in a way that affects us more than in past. As I stated before I had to actually vote for this and I was torn trying to make my decision. I understand the principle behind what they are trying to do but in end the potential for abuse outweighed what I thought would be the benefit. If they had put in just a few safeguards then I would have voted in favor.

Fair enough.  Sorry to misquote you but I was more referring to its affect on league play.  I would assume that "one event" would mean 1 classic league game per weekend but I could be wrong.  Apparently Wembleys thinks I'm naive, off base, maybe even stupid.  I think maybe I should cry like he is. It's not the end of the world. Life in club soccer will go on but it is not a plot by the big clubs to destroy the independents. It originated with US Youth Soccer and has just now filtered down to Classic (later than just about every other league in the country).

I'm still confused by the motivation behind this decision.

I think I understand why US Youth Soccer would want this... because it will likely benefit the elite-most players. US Youth Soccer's goal should be producing more and more elite soccer players. The club pass rule will be applied to the exceptional kids and that will potentially increase playing time for the elite-most youths. The more they play the better they'll be, right?

But I don't understand why the leagues in our area would feverishly argue in favor of this rule. The leagues' goals aren't to cater to a limited handful of elite players. The leagues are servicing the entire NTX soccer community. How does this change benefit 90%+ of their customer base? (By "customer base" I'm referring to the children, not the clubs.) The only reasons I can think of...
1. Complying with US Youth Soccer guidelines.
2. Caving to the demands of the clubs.
3. Reduce paperwork/overhead?

US Youth Soccer... I get it. The leagues that voted to approve this... I don't get it.

What am I missing?

Several months ago there was a hot topic on the girls’ board that noted that the volume of player releases had risen so high that NTSSA needed to add new staff. The workload associated to player releases had increased enough that more help was required.

If that’s true, how does this new rule help with that issue? How does this rule change help reduce that volume of people demanding an early exit?

In my opinion, I don’t think that it does. If anything, I think it hurts any potential customers' concerns. I think the addition of this rule will leave MORE people feeling slighted then ever before.

bigtex75081 wrote:Several months ago there was a hot topic on the girls’ board that noted that the volume of player releases had risen so high that NTSSA needed to add new staff.  The workload associated to player releases had increased enough that more help was required.

If that’s true, how does this new rule help with that issue?  How does this rule change help reduce that volume of people demanding an early exit?  

In my opinion, I don’t think that it does.  If anything, I think it hurts any potential customers' concerns.  I think the addition of this rule will leave MORE people feeling slighted then ever before.

it really is a slap in the face. pay thousands of dollars but if the team needs a win umm, we don't need you this weekend. ridiculous and insulting to every paying customer...