Are the teams in classic do they deserve it?

I've been keeping up with a couple of tournaments and some of the Plano teams seem to be beating the classic teams. The main two are Olympians and ayses black they both have been beating d1 d2 an d3 teams in classic. An when they loses to these teams they are not getting killed they are competing usually losing by one or two goals.aysesblack lost to dallastexansred d1 2-0 while aysesgold lost to them 12-0. The point is I think Olympians an ayses black are gonna come in strong into classic next QT an are gonna move up an keep on moving up look out for these two strong teams

Barcaway wrote:I've been keeping up with a couple of tournaments and some of the Plano teams seem to be beating the classic teams. The main two are Olympians and ayses black they both have been beating d1 d2 an d3 teams in classic. An when they loses to these teams they are not getting killed they are competing usually losing by one or two goals.aysesblack lost to dallastexansred d1 2-0 while aysesgold lost to them 12-0. The point is I think Olympians an ayses black are gonna come in strong into classic next QT an are gonna move up an keep on moving up look out for these two strong teams

you don't get into cl because you deserve it you get in by playing your way into it through the qt or joining a club that has a bye for your team.

just because a ppl or apl team beats a cl team in a tournament, indoor or friendly that doesn't automatically mean that they deserve to be in cl over those teams. you need to consider that many times coaches use tournaments to try different formations, players at different positions and give their bench players more playing time.

this is not to say that the two teams you have mentioned are not able to compete vs. cl teams. with cl opening up the qt those teams will have a great chance of showing they belong in cl.

but for now you may want to tap on the breaks just a bit.

Se_la_perdio! wrote:

Barcaway wrote:I've been keeping up with a couple of tournaments and some of the Plano teams seem to be beating the classic teams. The main two are Olympians and ayses black they both have been beating d1 d2 an d3 teams in classic. An when they loses to these teams they are not getting killed they are competing usually losing by one or two goals.aysesblack lost to dallastexansred d1 2-0 while aysesgold lost to them 12-0. The point is I think Olympians an ayses black are gonna come in strong into classic next QT an are gonna move up an keep on moving up look out for these two strong teams

you don't get into cl because you deserve it you get in by playing your way into it through the qt or joining a club that has a bye for your team.

just because a ppl or apl team beats a cl team in a tournament, indoor or friendly that doesn't automatically mean that they deserve to be in cl over those teams.  you need to consider that many times coaches use tournaments to try different formations, players at different positions and give their bench players more playing time.  

this is not to say that the two teams you have mentioned are not able to compete vs. cl teams. with cl opening up the qt those teams will have a great chance of showing they belong in cl.

but for now you may want to tap on the breaks just a bit.

DON'T TAP ON THE BRAKES BARCAWAY LOL! you are right on track. the big clubs use byes and "timely" intra-club transfers to hold on to this spots. i disagree that they "earned" those spots BUT THEY DEFINITELY OWN THEM    

its like perdio said any team has the chance to get into classic league in the QT in may, good luck to all of those underdogs! and yes soccerdad the big clubs and classic league go together like doctors and pharmacy companys,or like cocaine and waffles   

omega striker wrote:its like perdio said any team has the chance to get into classic league in the QT in may, good luck to all of those underdogs! and yes soccer dad the big clubs and classic league go together like doctors and pharmacy companys,or like cocaine and waffles   

lol omega   yes with all that is wrong with system. at least now (starting this past may) anyone can try and qualify. if only in D3. that is why (in my opinion) D3 will provide some really great match ups with a number of D3 teams that could beat D2 and D1 teams.

soccerdadrandy wrote:

Se_la_perdio! wrote:

Barcaway wrote:I've been keeping up with a couple of tournaments and some of the Plano teams seem to be beating the classic teams. The main two are Olympians and ayses black they both have been beating d1 d2 an d3 teams in classic. An when they loses to these teams they are not getting killed they are competing usually losing by one or two goals.aysesblack lost to dallastexansred d1 2-0 while aysesgold lost to them 12-0. The point is I think Olympians an ayses black are gonna come in strong into classic next QT an are gonna move up an keep on moving up look out for these two strong teams

you don't get into cl because you deserve it you get in by playing your way into it through the qt or joining a club that has a bye for your team.

just because a ppl or apl team beats a cl team in a tournament, indoor or friendly that doesn't automatically mean that they deserve to be in cl over those teams.  you need to consider that many times coaches use tournaments to try different formations, players at different positions and give their bench players more playing time.  

this is not to say that the two teams you have mentioned are not able to compete vs. cl teams. with cl opening up the qt those teams will have a great chance of showing they belong in cl.

but for now you may want to tap on the breaks just a bit.

DON'T TAP ON THE BRAKES BARCAWAY LOL! you are right on track. the big clubs use byes and "timely" intra-club transfers to hold on to this spots. i disagree that they "earned" those spots BUT THEY DEFINITELY OWN THEM    

who are you disagreeing with? who said anything about the teams earning those spots?

i said the teams in cl either played their way in through the qt or they joined a club that had a bye for them. did i miss something?

Se_la_perdio! wrote:

soccerdadrandy wrote:

Se_la_perdio! wrote:

Barcaway wrote:I've been keeping up with a couple of tournaments and some of the Plano teams seem to be beating the classic teams. The main two are Olympians and ayses black they both have been beating d1 d2 an d3 teams in classic. An when they loses to these teams they are not getting killed they are competing usually losing by one or two goals.aysesblack lost to dallastexansred d1 2-0 while aysesgold lost to them 12-0. The point is I think Olympians an ayses black are gonna come in strong into classic next QT an are gonna move up an keep on moving up look out for these two strong teams

you don't get into cl because you deserve it you get in by playing your way into it through the qt or joining a club that has a bye for your team.

just because a ppl or apl team beats a cl team in a tournament, indoor or friendly that doesn't automatically mean that they deserve to be in cl over those teams.  you need to consider that many times coaches use tournaments to try different formations, players at different positions and give their bench players more playing time.  

this is not to say that the two teams you have mentioned are not able to compete vs. cl teams. with cl opening up the qt those teams will have a great chance of showing they belong in cl.

but for now you may want to tap on the breaks just a bit.

DON'T TAP ON THE BRAKES BARCAWAY LOL! you are right on track. the big clubs use byes and "timely" intra-club transfers to hold on to this spots. i disagree that they "earned" those spots BUT THEY DEFINITELY OWN THEM    

who are you disagreeing with?  who said anything about the teams earning those spots?

i said the teams in cl either played their way in through the qt or they joined a club that had a bye for them.  did i miss something?

my bad! perdio. i brought a previous conversation (chain of thought) into this one and mistakenly lumped you into that line of thinking. as i said at least now (as of this may) teams can enter an "open" QT. it would still be nice if lower half of D2 had to requalify but thats not the "system"

[quote="omega striker"]its like perdio said any team has the chance to get into classic league in the QT in may, good luck to all of those underdogs! and yes soccerdad the big clubs and classic league go together like doctors and pharmacy companys,or like cocaine and waffles   
[/quote]

"Cocaine and waffles"? Must be 'Bama's last meal prior to taking the field against OU last night.  

In my opinion, the clubs' ownership of Byes is the worst part about the current system.  (I think that's really dumb.)  I've heard the history of how that rule was presented but I still don't understand how Classic was ever able to justify making that change.  Aside from that one piece (Club ownership of byes) I'm fine with the current system with QT.  

The tone of this string implies that there should be changes made.  So... If it wasn't this system, how should it be changed?  What system would be better?  How should this system be improved?

bigtex75081 wrote:In my opinion, the clubs' ownership of Byes is the worst part about the current system.  (I think that's really dumb.)  I've heard the history of how that rule was presented but I still don't understand how Classic was ever able to justify making that change.  Aside from that one piece (Club ownership of byes) I'm fine with the current system with QT.  

The tone of this string implies that there should be changes made.  So... If it wasn't this system, how should it be changed?  What system would be better?  How should this system be improved?

what i have seen called for from the people that don't like the current cl system is to have each division opened up for re-qualifying every year. it's an interesting concept but i don't think anyone has shown a case study where this is proven to be a better system.

the other main point people argue is that the byes should belong to the team not the club.

i think opening up d3 is good enough for now to address the first point. to address the second point maybe they should drop the 75% rule to 50% for a team to keep their bye if they want to leave their club.

Se_la_perdio! wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:In my opinion, the clubs' ownership of Byes is the worst part about the current system.  (I think that's really dumb.)  I've heard the history of how that rule was presented but I still don't understand how Classic was ever able to justify making that change.  Aside from that one piece (Club ownership of byes) I'm fine with the current system with QT.  

The tone of this string implies that there should be changes made.  So... If it wasn't this system, how should it be changed?  What system would be better?  How should this system be improved?

what i have seen called for from the people that don't like the current cl system is to have each division opened up for re-qualifying every year.  it's an interesting concept but i don't think anyone has shown a case study where this is proven to be a better system.  

the other main point people argue is that the byes should belong to the team not the club.

i think opening up d3 is good enough for now to address the first point.  to address the second point maybe they should drop the 75% rule to 50% for a team to keep their bye if they want to leave their club.

I like the promotion/relegation system for D1 and D2.  I do believe it should be harder to achieve those levels.

I also think opening up all of D3 was a nice step forward for maintaining a competitive balance.  It's also a better way to resolve the issue of teams having a bad first QT.  Too much weight was put on that very first QT.  A bad first QT would demolish the future of a potentially good team as parents scrambled to jump ship.  This seems like a decent solution to that.

I heard that it was the small clubs that argued for club-owned byes.  While their logic may have been good in theory, it back-fired and ultimately benefitted the large clubs primarily.  That made it even harder for independents and small clubs to stay afloat.

I also know that club byes (N+1) came about because clubs didn't want to be "held hostage" by 1 or 2 families every year that knew their exit would cost the club a bye.  Unfortunately though, that decision by Classic took even more power out of the customers' hands and shifted it to the clubs.

Opening up D3 was a good thing but I would take the next step and recommend 2 additional actions. First I would not have the tournament in May. I would do the same as the girls side and have the team qualify with who they signed in July. Let's play the upcoming season with the bb's that you qualified with (some of the teams currently in CL have a very different make-up from who they qualified with). Second, I would not give clubs the ability to keep byes and give them to another team. Much in the same vein as my first recommendation the teams that earned the slot should have them and if they disband or move then the slot should either move with them or be dropped by the club and left to the CL organization to move up the next available team.

All this could mean that more than 8 slots might be up for grabs during the tournament but that would not be an issue to solve.

cowpukesfan wrote:

omega striker wrote:its like perdio said any team has the chance to get into classic league in the QT in may, good luck to all of those underdogs! and yes soccerdad the big clubs and classic league go together like doctors and pharmacy companys,or like cocaine and waffles   

"Cocaine and waffles"? Must be 'Bama's last meal prior to taking the field against OU last night.  

    that might have helped them!  

I think the system should be completely overhauled. Teams should play better and then not have to complain about the position that they got themselves in. You are where you are because you put yourself there. The we beat this D1 team that one time does not mean you now deserve to be in D1. A broke clock is right twice a day, but doesn't mean you can keep time with it.

SoccerXXX wrote:Second, I would not give clubs the ability to keep byes and give them to another team.  Much in the same vein as my first recommendation the teams that earned the slot should have them and if they disband or move then the slot should either move with them or be dropped by the club and left to the CL organization to move up the next available team.  

A team or group of players that moves at signing and keeps 75% of the players already keeps the bye. A team that has 100% parent approval can change clubs or go independent during the soccer year.

Any suggestion of additional conditionals on the retention of byes reopens the discussion of how many returning players are necessary to keep the bye. "n+1" was eliminated to foster stability, and yes, to keep a couple of parents from having control over the coach and the club.

You have a point about a disbanded team. There is a technical definition for this and it involves filing the paperwork to dissolve the team with North Texas. In this instance, it makes sense for the club to forfeit the bye. Others may argue that if no players return, the team is effectively disbanded. If you want the club to lose the bye in this instance, you are restoring a player threshold for retention of the bye to 1 or more, which is again "n+1" where n = 0.

well sounds like some good ideas but for now i think the PPL/APL teams need to sign up for any tournaments where D1 teams are in and play and if they beat them they should carry some kind of weight for bigger tourneys and those tourneys should take that into consideration and place them into the top brackets instead of dropping them in lower level ones?

i think its great to have the "underdogs" beat the big clubs in classic league keep on keeping on!   

NP - You are right. I was just stating it again. The biggest thing is to try and create the ability for the best teams YoY to bubble up through the rankings (Not just CL but also APL and PPL though they are not the focus of this thread)

OS - Totally agree with you. At the end of the day it is the bb's hard work and talent that will get them progressed through the CL and various tournaments. If a PPL/APL team or really any team enters a competition and beats higher ranked opponents I would suspect they will be viewed favorably for the next tournament. CL slows down the movement of talent up or down in their league but does not prevent competition from rising up in tournaments or even in CL over time.

Se_la_perdio! wrote:
just because a ppl or apl team beats a cl team in a tournament, indoor or friendly that doesn't automatically mean that they deserve to be in cl over those teams.  you need to consider that many times coaches use tournaments to try different formations, players at different positions and give their bench players more playing time.  

Agree.

The other factor to consider is that when this happens, the lower team likely has guest players.

don't know, but having watched ppl and apl play THEY definitely deserve to be in ppl and apl....

soccerisgood123 wrote:don't know, but having watched ppl and apl play THEY definitely deserve to be in ppl and apl....

lol soccer...123. true for majority of those teams but there are a few classic league teams that would fit in nicely there as well    

soccerdadrandy wrote:

soccerisgood123 wrote:don't know, but having watched ppl and apl play THEY definitely deserve to be in ppl and apl....

lol soccer...123. true for majority of those teams but there are a few classic league teams that would fit in nicely there as well    

aint that the truth   

What if they didn't? What if they played they're way an dominated teams in Classic should represent an prove that they deserve in classic don't tell me all these factors.thesse teams are dominating an yes they might have one two guest players but your telling me that a classic team is gonna lose because of on or two guest players? If they are classic teams they should kill ppl apl teams.

Code:

oh hell here we go again with this crap,quit all the crying and EARN your way into classic league everybody has the same chance at U11 and now with a open tournament format, getting lucky and beating a d1 team in a tournament only means more than likely that the d1 team missed a ton of shots on goal and probably started their bench players to get some playing time and alot of luck   

The rules have evolved over several decades. I remember Classic League was around back in the early 80s. That's over 30 years of tweaking the process.

There won't be any major changes without a huge overriding reason.

BTW; which APL/PPL team(s) defeated which D1 team(s) in the past year? What was the tournament? It's simple curiosity.

“Become the change you want to see.” - Mahatma Gandhi

The world is full of people that complain. Instead of complaining, take action. Do something about it. This string has already been opened up to discuss how the current system should be improved but, in general, the response has been that (aside from Club-owned byes) that the current system makes sense.

So Barcaway, how should this current system be improved?