Possible PPL Qualifying Tournament

Schedules are posted

swindler wrote:

Bagman00 wrote:Since two wild card teams will make D-1 it seems that the bracket that is playing 4 games is almost assured one of those spots. They will have the opportunity to score more points on the 10 point system. Is that fair to the other three brackets? Or should it be most points per game scored (on the 10pt scale) to keep things equal?

I have not seen it written how they would decide the wild card teams. They could even take the CL route and use their discretion. But I would guess that it would be based on match average. That's not necessarily fair either, especially if the larger brackets were "filled from the bottom" with the extra teams.

They usually average it out to points-per-game so teams playing fewer games are not at a disadvantage.

hoff1032 wrote:

swindler wrote:

Bagman00 wrote:Since two wild card teams will make D-1 it seems that the bracket that is playing 4 games is almost assured one of those spots. They will have the opportunity to score more points on the 10 point system. Is that fair to the other three brackets? Or should it be most points per game scored (on the 10pt scale) to keep things equal?

I have not seen it written how they would decide the wild card teams. They could even take the CL route and use their discretion. But I would guess that it would be based on match average. That's not necessarily fair either, especially if the larger brackets were "filled from the bottom" with the extra teams.

They usually average it out to points-per-game so teams playing fewer games are not at a disadvantage.

Agreed that's what they usually do, and that's what I suspect will happen. My comment about it possibly still being slightly unfair was: If the top four teams in each bracket are evenly seeded, and then the remaining (lowest seeded) teams are placed as the fifth team in one bracket, but not another - the larger bracket will be at a slight advantage, as the average seeding will be lower. A good team will have an extra chance at yielding a 10 point win to bring the average up.

[quote="swindler"]

hoff1032 wrote:

swindler wrote:

Bagman00 wrote:Since two wild card teams will make D-1 it seems that the bracket that is playing 4 games is almost assured one of those spots. They will have the opportunity to score more points on the 10 point system. Is that fair to the other three brackets? Or should it be most points per game scored (on the 10pt scale) to keep things equal?

I have not seen it written how they would decide the wild card teams. They could even take the CL route and use their discretion. But I would guess that it would be based on match average. That's not necessarily fair either, especially if the larger brackets were "filled from the bottom" with the extra teams.

They usually average it out to points-per-game so teams playing fewer games are not at a disadvantage.

I understand the point. But as it so happens, the five-team bracket contains three brand new teams. So while that seems to give an advantage to the two existing teams (TLC/Ayses and TFC White), I don't see it really benefitting the three new teams so much. TLC/Ayses and TFC White were #6 and #7 in PPL last season, so theoretically they got the draw that they deserved, as both teams should make it to the top division based on last year's results. If there is a very good team among the other three, then they will rise to the top and probably deserve one of the two Wildcard berths. If not, then they will end up beating each other up and not doing any of them any good. I have a feeling things will work out for the best. Ten of the 17 teams in the tournament will make the top division. If you don't make it out of this tournament, then your team probably needs to grow for a year against some similarly talented competition.

Hoff and Soccermom- Good to see you posting again. I was looking for you over on * and was wondering where you had gone. Are you still going to post on TM or are you done with that?
Soccermom - I know you son is on Ayses. Hoff - who does your son play for? I'm thinking ASG.
As for this weekend's predictions: I think Hoff is pretty much right on target. I think Solar Silver in Bracket A could be a strong condinder. They did pretty decent last year as TFC Blue and probably attracted good talent under the Solar umbrella, just as Solar Gold did last year. I also agree that the top four teams in the bracket should advance to Division 1.
Based on the brackets on the PYS website, it looks like there will actually be 22 teams in the U-13 division. Any thoughts as to why the other 5 teams didn't sign up for the QT this weekend? I assume all the boys are back in town with school starting next week. Just curious.

My guess would be that the 5 teams who aren't participating are teams from last year who finished at the very bottom...or new teams who don't think they have a shot at Division 1. There is an unusually low # of FC Dallas teams listed compared to last year - heard that Black fell apart due to their coach leaving the club, and we picked up one player from Red...if North came back, I'd imagine they're one team in the list of 5 who didn't want to mess with QT

As far as TM goes...it's like a ghost town over there...supposedly there will be another new site on 9/1 but I'm not sure it's worth making the switch back over there when we're all happy here...

I have a question? How important is it to qualify as d1 the first year and are the top 5 or 6 97's also the top teams when they were u11? Also, does that trend continue? Thanks

CLUB31 wrote:I have a question? How important is it to qualify as d1 the first year and are the top 5 or 6 97's also the top teams when they were u11? Also, does that trend continue? Thanks

Most teams in the Plano league will tell you that they are trying to move into the Classic league. To do that, your team MUST start the fall in D1, and your team MUST finish in the top 2 for your age group for their combined fall and spring standings. If they can accomplish that, then they will be given an invitation to challenge for a spot in Classic.

If Plano starts doing a qualifying tournament for every age group for every year, then it doesn't really matter where you started, or how you finished the year before, as you'll have a chance to qualify for Plano D1, and finish in the top 2 the next year and every year.

The teams that finish well in years past will generally finish well every year. Some advance into Classic, some return and continue to compete as a top team, and some slide or fall apart. In my experience, both small clubs and big clubs can advance the skill and talent of their team considerably and advance, and both small clubs and big clubs can have their team fall apart. It really depends on a lot of factors.

CLUB31 wrote:I have a question? How important is it to qualify as d1 the first year and are the top 5 or 6 97's also the top teams when they were u11? Also, does that trend continue? Thanks

It just occurred to me that you're talking about CL - not Plano, and qualifying into U11 D1, aren't you?

Different answer, as qualifying into CL D1 at U11 is a huge lift for your team. You have two years in CL guaranteed. Odds are, it might take 3-4 years, or a complete meltdown for your team to leave CL. That covers the bulk of the youth soccer years. Once you reach U15, the better teams are established and the players migrate. Teams move around some, but their character is pretty established.

As a CL D1 team, you can recruit better, and with the "club keeps the bye" rule, if the team begins to disintegrate, your team can merge with another team, pirate other teams, or otherwise drastically change their makeup and still stay in CL.

Movement in and out of CL and between divisions is pretty restricted from year to year. So starting in D1 is a huge advantage for your team.

Swindler,thanks for the answer we are a d1 u11 team and that is what I wanted to know. Most people at this age talk about how much things change over the next 3-5 years and I just don't see it. The d1 teams have the best players that's why they are d1. There will be changes but kids don't change as much as people think. Don't get me wrong I know kids improve and others fall off but most of the movement in kids ability relative to their age group is small. I think?

CLUB31 wrote:I have a question? How important is it to qualify as d1 the first year and are the top 5 or 6 97's also the top teams when they were u11? Also, does that trend continue? Thanks

IMO qualifying is D1 is important if you want to stay D1 for awhile with that being said it does not always happen. The 97 age group is probaly the CL anomaly age group. It is about 15 team deep. 1-5 usually will not lose to 11-15 but the rest is up in the air. A 6 v 12 matchup will be a close game. As for the top 5/6 at u11, most of those teams have had as much as an 8 player turnover in 2 years. The teams names are the same but the players have changed. Maybe one team has not had much turnover and another is basically a new team.

dfwobserver wrote:Hoff and Soccermom- Good to see you posting again. I was looking for you over on * and was wondering where you had gone. Are you still going to post on TM or are you done with that?
Soccermom - I know you son is on Ayses. Hoff - who does your son play for? I'm thinking ASG.
As for this weekend's predictions: I think Hoff is pretty much right on target. I think Solar Silver in Bracket A could be a strong condinder. They did pretty decent last year as TFC Blue and probably attracted good talent under the Solar umbrella, just as Solar Gold did last year. I also agree that the top four teams in the bracket should advance to Division 1.
Based on the brackets on the PYS website, it looks like there will actually be 22 teams in the U-13 division. Any thoughts as to why the other 5 teams didn't sign up for the QT this weekend? I assume all the boys are back in town with school starting next week. Just curious.

Thanks for the welcome DFWO. Actually my son moved to Aces this summer. I agree that the five "missing" teams are likely the teams that finished at the bottom of PYSA or are brand new.

CLUB31 wrote:Swindler,thanks for the answer we are a d1 u11 team and that is what I wanted to know. Most people at this age talk about how much things change over the next 3-5 years and I just don't see it. The d1 teams have the best players that's why they are d1. There will be changes but kids don't change as much as people think. Don't get me wrong I know kids improve and others fall off but most of the movement in kids ability relative to their age group is small. I think?

You will always have kids (i.e.parents) who think the grass is greener. You will have the club "A" team steal kids from the same club's "B" team. You will have kids on other teams get a "talking to" from someone, and lo and behold, now they're on your team. You will have kids who want to play football instead of soccer. You will have kids get burnt out. You may have a coach who arbitrarily decides to punt your kid off of the team for no reason at all. You will have the occasional diamond in the rough who is spotted on some rec team somewhere and impresses the coach. . And on and on.

For every kid that comes on, a kid has to go off. Kids don't change much but their surrounding factors will change a lot.

So the entire season rests on the first three games. If you make D1 you have a chance to advance, if not, well, enjoy the next who cares division.

homer999 wrote:So the entire season rests on the first three games. If you make D1 you have a chance to advance, if not, well, enjoy the next who cares division.

I know, that really stinks. Seems to me like it would be better if there were some chance for the bottom 2 in D1 and top 2 in D2 to change divisions at mid season. Would certainly create some motiviation and something to play for for those starting off in D2. JMO

Striker_97 wrote:

homer999 wrote:So the entire season rests on the first three games. If you make D1 you have a chance to advance, if not, well, enjoy the next who cares division.

I know, that really stinks. Seems to me like it would be better if there were some chance for the bottom 2 in D1 and top 2 in D2 to change divisions at mid season. Would certainly create some motiviation and something to play for for those starting off in D2. JMO

Well, they've done mid-season promotion/relegation before, and may do that again this year. But even if a team from D2 was promoted and finished first in the spring in D1, Classic would not give them an invite, as Classic would not consider their fall season "worthy". This exact situation has occurred, and the team was passed over.

The reality is that if you can't place into D1, you probably aren't starting the season strong enough to finish in the top 2. Remember, it's not how good you are at the end. It's how good you were the whole season.

Not true. Some of these teams added 6-7 players and in a month they may come together as a team but for now aren't ready. Last year you could loose a few games early and come together as a team to win. Both ASG White and CDI finished the first half of the season outside of the top three and ended up winning the challenge spots by a strong finish.
Just another stupid decision by PYSA.

CLUB31 wrote:Swindler,thanks for the answer we are a d1 u11 team and that is what I wanted to know. Most people at this age talk about how much things change over the next 3-5 years and I just don't see it. The d1 teams have the best players that's why they are d1. There will be changes but kids don't change as much as people think. Don't get me wrong I know kids improve and others fall off but most of the movement in kids ability relative to their age group is small. I think?

Club31 - the changes in development of kids within an age group are huge. Many kids that are D1 at U11 will be D2 / D3 at U14. Many kids still playing in Plano will be D1 over the next few years. Every child develops their skills, athleticism, and aggressiveness at different rates / times. There were kids that are stars in D1 at U11 that got by on their size and athleticism / aggressiveness. However, by the time the kids hit U13, everyone had caught up physically and they no longer could get by on their athleticism. Over time, the kids that focus on skills development and have good "genes" will surpass the kids that rely on athleticism / aggressiveness.
A typical roster turns over 3 - 5 players a year. That means over the next 4 years you will be lucky to have 3-4 kids that started together still playing on the same team.

eredivisie wrote:

CLUB31 wrote:Swindler,thanks for the answer we are a d1 u11 team and that is what I wanted to know. Most people at this age talk about how much things change over the next 3-5 years and I just don't see it. The d1 teams have the best players that's why they are d1. There will be changes but kids don't change as much as people think. Don't get me wrong I know kids improve and others fall off but most of the movement in kids ability relative to their age group is small. I think?

Club31 - the changes in development of kids within an age group are huge. Many kids that are D1 at U11 will be D2 / D3 at U14. Many kids still playing in Plano will be D1 over the next few years. Every child develops their skills, athleticism, and aggressiveness at different rates / times. There were kids that are stars in D1 at U11 that got by on their size and athleticism / aggressiveness. However, by the time the kids hit U13, everyone had caught up physically and they no longer could get by on their athleticism. Over time, the kids that focus on skills development and have good "genes" will surpass the kids that rely on athleticism / aggressiveness.
A typical roster turns over 3 - 5 players a year. That means over the next 4 years you will be lucky to have 3-4 kids that started together still playing on the same team.

Let me add my comment that I absolutely agree with the most recent posts. Skill, size, and speed are all attributes that can change the tools a player has - and some U11 players already had their spurt, and some will get it later. So players will move both up and down. But I think perhaps the biggest attribute is the aggressiveness, or perhaps a better word for me is competitiveness. It's not just about being physical. It's getting to the 50/50 balls first. It's making the runs when the game is waning. At U11, competitiveness is what makes a select few stand out, but the team as a whole hasn't gotten there yet. As the team develops, more kids will either learn/develop into competitive players, or they will move down. By the time you're at U14/U15, the team as a whole needs to play quite a bit more aggressive to compete at D1. Some that used to survive on skill, just never develop the heart to "want it more" and that is a big, necessary factor in youth soccer.

But in general, my earlier post was speaking of the team - not the players. Once the team is in D1, it has the advantage and resources to stay there - but the team may need to change it's parts a little, or a lot, to stay there. My point was that a D1 team is in a better position to recruit those emerging stars from Plano to their team than is anyone else. Whether your BB survives the turnover depends on his own development.

homer999 wrote:Not true. Some of these teams added 6-7 players and in a month they may come together as a team but for now aren't ready. Last year you could loose a few games early and come together as a team to win. Both ASG White and CDI finished the first half of the season outside of the top three and ended up winning the challenge spots by a strong finish.
Just another stupid decision by PYSA.

I agree that if they are going to emulate Classic by having multiple divisions from the beginning of the season, they should allow for a Challenge Tournament for the top 2/bottom 2 to allow them to move up or down in mid-season. And don't penalize the teams that move up (if they do) by keeping them out of the mix for the Challenge Tourney. If they are good enough to beat the teams in the top division, then they deserve a chance to Challenge. The older (and more jaded) the kids get, the more you need to keep that carrot dangling out in front of them. If they know that none of their games have any meaning, I believe it will decrease the motivation to perform at their highest level.
Realistically, it is unlikely that a second division team could not only dominate their own division, but also move up and dominate the first division as well. But as stated previously, it does take time for these teams (especially the new ones) to gel. If they have assembled enough talent but lack only the experience of playing together and growth as a team, then it is possible to be a much more competitive team in November than you are in August.

swindler wrote:Remember, it's not how good you are at the end. It's how good you were the whole season.

Provided you play well in the QT.....

homer999 wrote:Not true. Some of these teams added 6-7 players and in a month they may come together as a team but for now aren't ready. Last year you could loose a few games early and come together as a team to win. Both ASG White and CDI finished the first half of the season outside of the top three and ended up winning the challenge spots by a strong finish.
Just another stupid decision by PYSA.

If they added 6-7 players in July, they should have at least 2-3 tournaments and several scrimmages in before the season starts. CDI was a team that started slow, and certainly improved. They weren't ready in the fall, but they were indeed a top team at the end. In that situation the format rewarded them. However, I think they benefit as much as anything by the collapse of FCD Black and FWU North Blue. But ASG White started the fall 6-0-0. I wouldn't call that a slow start.

To get into D1, all the teams have to do is finish in the top ~half of the tournament. And we know there are several teams that will not be ready. So the early challenge of this tournament should not be outside any top team's reach - new players or not. But I agree that I'd like to see the best team make it to the Classic challenges. And with some teams as "new" as they are, there should be more emphasis on the spring results. So as I said above, hopefully they got the necessary work in during the summer and will be ready to play Saturday.