Re: Youth Soccer Needs (Another) Overhaul

by go99 2/25/2010, 1:55 pm

whoa! did someone say beer? I am in. Actually the reason possesion is unsuccesful at a yourger age is simple. To many touches and they are just 10 etc. When they move the ball around it only takes one kid to make a mistake and the ball is lost. Shorten the number of times the kids have to touch the ball and you allow for fewer mistakes. Just watched B Rhines 96 team win premier league. Doing essentially the same thing as our team. We have kids lose the ball on the first touch or make a bad pass or wrong decision. With his older team the mistakes are still there but far fewer. Ayses older teams may start winning because the kids just get better at what they are doing. A special forward at this age will not make a true possesion team win at this age. They still have to work the ball up too him and most of the touches are before he gets the ball. A few special midfielders would help but they are still kids and the mistakes will still be there just less. Solution? Pass and posses and learn or fewer touches, get the ball to the forwards faster, fewer mistakes and win.

by True10 2/25/2010, 2:23 pm

I am not much of a drinker but passing up a beer with TG would be a red card. I have seen FCD 96 and they do move the ball well and move off the ball as well.

Go, do you think less touches will create a kickball mentality for the players and a decreased need to work on skills if they feel it is ok just to kick it?

by go99 2/25/2010, 2:39 pm

that's exactly what it will do, but it will win games. The 2 teams that the 96 team played on the weekend where heavy on the kick and run. 1 team had an exceptional forward who managed to cause enough problems on his own to set up a score. Once Bobby's team go cotrol of the ball the completely took the flow of the game and dominated. This is at an older age group, and you still see the mistakes or occasional bad choices. Just fewer of them.

by eskimo 2/26/2010, 12:41 pm

I think that if MLS or other leagues paid transfer fees to the soccer clubs, then they would start developing the players and not worry about winning games. The better the players..the more the clubs would make.

by The German 2/26/2010, 12:52 pm

eskimo wrote:I think that if MLS or other leagues paid transfer fees to the soccer clubs, then they would start developing the players and not worry about winning games. The better the players..the more the clubs would make.

they don't? According to some info I found http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/spieler/69426/jared-jeffrey/transferdaten.html Texans received 300.000 Euros from Brussels for Jared Jeffrey. How is it handled with MLS?

by Guest 2/26/2010, 1:18 pm

The German wrote:
eskimo wrote:I think that if MLS or other leagues paid transfer fees to the soccer clubs, then they would start developing the players and not worry about winning games. The better the players..the more the clubs would make.
they don't? According to some info I found http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/spieler/69426/jared-jeffrey/transferdaten.html Texans received 300.000 Euros from Brussels for Jared Jeffrey. How is it handled with MLS?

That's very interesting ! I thought FCD (being a pro club) was the only club in the area able to actually sell one of their player under contract. So Did The Texans get 300K Euro for one of their "kid" ?

by old soccer dad 2/26/2010, 1:37 pm

The German wrote:
eskimo wrote:I think that if MLS or other leagues paid transfer fees to the soccer clubs, then they would start developing the players and not worry about winning games. The better the players..the more the clubs would make.
they don't? According to some info I found http://www.transfermarkt.de/de/spieler/69426/jared-jeffrey/transferdaten.html Texans received 300.000 Euros from Brussels for Jared Jeffrey. How is it handled with MLS?

I think you guys are misreading the info on the website. The Texans never recieved any money for the signing of Jeffrey, since they are not a professional club. I believe the 300.000 Euros was the contract he signed when he turned 18 with Brugge. If I remember correctly he spent most of his time in Bradenton and hardly ever played for the Texans in his last couple of years.

by finish1 2/26/2010, 4:36 pm

The German wrote:Me. However mine was different in the way that you have a D1 league comprised of all regions in DFW which is fed by D2 teams coming from 2 regions (North,East&South,West or whatever make sense) and D3 from 4 regions. Include PPL & Arlington from the getgo. Meaning the higher you get the further you travel. Make a similar set-up in Austin, Houston, San Antonio, Tulsa and OC and once the kids get older let them play regional like PL. Spread the system across the country and in 20 years all problems are resolved.

Locally, I agree with the 4 regions arguement, with each region carrying D2 and D3 leagues. The top 2 teams in all 4 regions should compete in D1.
Regarding 'higher/further'. D1 teams should travel all 4 regions for competition. Great way to create a solid fan base by having the 'best talent' moving around the area, playing in front of local groups. Great matchups get people on the sidelines.
I also generally agree with your later post on the overlap between adult and youth football. Isn't Go's coach, FCD Rhino doing just that?

by mrclean 3/15/2010, 11:04 am

Here is my take on this. We don't need a top down system. Also considering how long it has taken for soccer programs to become widespread in our country, our level of play isn't too bad.
Here is what is needed:
1. Coaches teaching more fundamentals.
2. More park and playground play for creativity, 1v1, and confidence. Good place to try to dribble through everybody instead league games.
3. Coaches teach Tactical Attacking and Defending for team play. Even our best players don't always understand player roles and off ball movement in different formations.
4. Kids need to watch a lot more soccer.
5. Support school soccer programs. It's the most inclusive, affordable, parent friendly, less political system we have. It's developmental in that the coach can't recruit and replace. The coach has to improve the players they have. Coaches are already getting better.
6. More residential academies (all expenses paid) where top players throughout the country are able to train together and scrimmage with instruction from our country's best coaches and trainers.
7. Remove the anger from the game. We have to teach respect for the game. There is too much anger and hostility that takes all the players out of the game. Instead of using yellow cards to control the game which causes players to play with less intensity. Instead, Red cards should be issued anytime a player is going after another player to cause injury. As soon as a player gets angry and loses his cool, he should be pulled off. I honestly believe that we are losing our ability to play with intelligence and creativity because our brain's hypothalamus and amygdala cause us to go into "Fight or flight" mode during games. The amygdala is what causes two teams to get themselves worked up just thinking that the game will turn ugly because of past games. If we want our players to play with creativity and intelligence, then they can't play with anger, hostility, or fear.

by gpoo 4/18/2010, 10:59 pm

b0013 wrote:Flaws of the Academy System in the USA.

In 2007 U.S. Soccer began an initiative called “Development Academy,” it was put in place to turn powerful youth clubs into advanced tools for developing players. The idea seemed to be a step in the right direction. An outlined plan that would have the best youth teams playing against each other and U.S. Soccer would afford the teams the availability to the most advanced technology in training. In the ideal world, it sounded like the change every youth soccer fan dreams of: professional environment for our youth, highly competitive games, and a new idea for how youth soccer should be innovated in this country.

However, the whole process started off on the wrong foot. U.S. Soccer began an admission process into the elitist fraternity. They selected the most highly regarded clubs in the major metropolitan areas across the country. The Academy took clubs based on championship pedigree not on player development. There was (and still is) too much emphasis on results in club matches. The league structure, for some unspeakable reason, put in place a highly prized championship game every year that is aired on television.

...

In the end, the power struggle will ruin more players than it helps. There is no winner in this battle, only losers. Just have some sympathy for the players that are prevented from reaching their potential because the “Development Academy” is not working.

*

What a rant. J.R. Eskilson's look at the flaws of the academy system in the USA is a pointless froth against clubs. He doesn't address the basic reality of how the club system IS our youth soccer system here in the US. If you want to debate a rehaul of US youth soccer fine; but until the system can be modeled more like Europe, where the professional clubs provide the academy, then it is what it is.

He is also bass-ackwards on US Soccer control of the clubs. They are riding the backs of the clubs, for obvious reasons. Clubs are already in place, with experienced coaching and a system of bringing up the best youth soccer teams available.

Look it doesn't take a genius to figure out the basic motivation of academy, and on this point I agree 100% it's has nothing to do with development.

Yeah, yeah I'm late the party but I just noticed this post area. Youth Soccer Needs (Another) Overhaul - Page 2 Icon_redface

by THE NEEDLE 4/19/2010, 9:39 am

gpoo wrote:
b0013 wrote:Flaws of the Academy System in the USA.

In 2007 U.S. Soccer began an initiative called “Development Academy,” it was put in place to turn powerful youth clubs into advanced tools for developing players. The idea seemed to be a step in the right direction. An outlined plan that would have the best youth teams playing against each other and U.S. Soccer would afford the teams the availability to the most advanced technology in training. In the ideal world, it sounded like the change every youth soccer fan dreams of: professional environment for our youth, highly competitive games, and a new idea for how youth soccer should be innovated in this country.

However, the whole process started off on the wrong foot. U.S. Soccer began an admission process into the elitist fraternity. They selected the most highly regarded clubs in the major metropolitan areas across the country. The Academy took clubs based on championship pedigree not on player development. There was (and still is) too much emphasis on results in club matches. The league structure, for some unspeakable reason, put in place a highly prized championship game every year that is aired on television.

...

In the end, the power struggle will ruin more players than it helps. There is no winner in this battle, only losers. Just have some sympathy for the players that are prevented from reaching their potential because the “Development Academy” is not working.

*

What a rant. J.R. Eskilson's look at the flaws of the academy system in the USA is a pointless froth against clubs. He doesn't address the basic reality of how the club system IS our youth soccer system here in the US. If you want to debate a rehaul of US youth soccer fine; but until the system can be modeled more like Europe, where the professional clubs provide the academy, then it is what it is.

He is also bass-ackwards on US Soccer control of the clubs. They are riding the backs of the clubs, for obvious reasons. Clubs are already in place, with experienced coaching and a system of bringing up the best youth soccer teams available.

Look it doesn't take a genius to figure out the basic motivation of academy, and on this point I agree 100% it's has nothing to do with development.

Yeah, yeah I'm late the party but I just noticed this post area.

Yes the in the US the majority of incentives are related to developing a top team. If you have a top team(s) you draw additonal players, coaches, parents and $ to the club.
In other countries the primary incentive is to develop a few professional players. The clubs provide the training and bear all the costs. If the club does a good job they are rewarded by the player playing on their pro team or by selling the rights to the player.
Recently, there has been a small step toward the MLS teams being able to develop and sign their players.

by go99 4/19/2010, 9:47 am

and now being able to retain 75% of the transfer fee

by drsoccer 8/28/2010, 8:03 pm

Just calling it development academy and leaving the hassans, k.smiths, oscars, etc... in charge of it was like letting the fox guard the henhouse. They spent more time trying to figure out how to make it pay off$ for the club than figuring out what to teach. These same guys cared only about winning before,(balls to the wall, high pressure, non possession) and its the same story now. Setting up 4-8 invitational regional soccer centers that are free and where non club coaches work on a checklist of specific technical and tactical skills and play games might help development. Seriously- watching andro play txns in al looks just like when they played in cl, I was shocked at how little had changed, until i realized it's the same coaches doing the same old things... fc dallas has a different take on it since they can sign kids to their club. But how many US YNT players have they signed? I think the ones they signed were actually born in mexico and we're developing them for the tri's nat. program, not ours!

by soccerrus2 6/5/2011, 8:27 pm

I normally dont like to bring up old posts....my oh my how in a years time frame how the struggle over DA continues.

by onlyoneCCFC 6/25/2013, 1:31 pm

The only way to get clubs to produce players is to incentivise them to do so. Professional clubs in Europe et al (excluding the U.S) do not produce young talent for the love of it - they need young players to either 1. Play in the first team and help the club win and as a result reap the benifits of the prize money / entrance money to the champions league or other like tournaments or 2. Sell the players on and make money off them to buy better players or line the chairmans / managers pocket. Thus clubs know they must take a developmental approach to ensure they produce the best players (commodities) to be sold on. In the U.S this incentive does not exist for various reason beyond the scope of this comment, but it is because of this lack of incentive that the current circus of pretending we have a proper youth soccer system exists.

My proposal:
- If a youth player makes X amount of appearences for the MNT, the USSF should compensate that club with a grant of X amount of dollars that must be spent on facilities or something sensible. In other words not go into the pockets of greedy coaches.
- The USSF should centrally contract National Team Players and they should have a clause in their contract which states that if the player gets sold oversees, the USSF is compensated X amount of dollars for appearences and transfer fees. This revenue should go back into the Youth Soccer budget.

by Rightback 6/25/2013, 2:01 pm

Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

by Sprint 6/25/2013, 2:10 pm

Rightback wrote:Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

I understand that many people often comment that the price of select soccer is too high etc, and about this time of year, it becomes front and center as our kids enter contracts. The question is, what do we expect the coaches to do? I see people that think it should be free and clubs should only pick the best kids regardless if they can pay etc... How do we expect the clubs to stay in business if we do not pay for the coaching fees, administration etc?

The clubs are not selling players, so that line of revenue is gone. The only other thing is to charge for the coaching and services provided by the club. I do not do my job for free and would not expect a coach to spend as much time with my kids as the coaches do and for it to be free. I am not sure why that idea is so prevalent in NTX soccer that is should be free. If you do not want to pay, then there are dad coached teams, rec teams etc.

Until the clubs figure out how to make money off developing players ( ie sell them) there is no option but to charge for the services by the clubs and not sure why so many get up in arms about it. I would prefer to keep my money in my pocket, but I also don't like that it costs me $50 to take my family out to Chilis. But, I don't expect them to feed and serve my family for free.

by my2cents 6/25/2013, 2:17 pm

Rightback wrote:Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

That is hilarious. Don't think for a minute that just because San Antonio has 4 international players that it is the demise of the game here. Yes teams do compete with us with the National team but most of our best players do not or can not go.

by finish1 6/25/2013, 2:53 pm

Sprint, just to clarify, dad coaches are in select soccer, too. All the way up to Pre-Academy making sure their kid gets the breaks at the expense of everyone else. Buyer beware.

by Sprint 6/25/2013, 3:01 pm

finish1 wrote:Sprint, just to clarify, dad coaches are in select soccer, too. All the way up to Pre-Academy making sure their kid gets the breaks at the expense of everyone else. Buyer beware.

No doubt, my main point was we as the parents know the cost going in and we should know at least a little about the coach we select for our kids. IF we don't want to pay 3K, we don't have to. If we can develop a better model for youth soccer, we are free to try that as well.

The whole issue for me centers around being able to sell players. If a Solar or DT or Andromeda could sell a player for 1 million, then that could definitely free up some money to find the BEST players regardless of their ability to pay. But until that point, coaches have a right to be paid for their time and the club for what they provide in a benefit to the player. That amount is always up for debate, but I like the free market system.

by finish1 6/25/2013, 3:12 pm

True. I will add that the competition for our dollars just ratcheted up big time with the invasion of Rush. My bet is a large volume of new kids will enter the pay-to-play market, prices will stabilize or drop slightly and the general level of competition will go down. Maybe the Platinum division of SDL is needed after all...starting at U5.

Nothing against indies having the right to sell players, but the clubs are better suited to develop talent, in theory. If FCD stays on task with putting their home grown kids on the field, the top kids will move to them at early ages as the potential payout increases...

by odie1993 6/25/2013, 3:13 pm

would USSF allow the clubs here to do what the European clubs do and allow for longer term contracts and limits on player movement?

Would the parents in NTX go for that?

Until that happens, I do not see how the clubs here will ever be able to sell players with the current state of 1 year contracts.

by Sprint 6/25/2013, 3:29 pm

finish1 wrote:True. I will add that the competition for our dollars just ratcheted up big time with the invasion of Rush. My bet is a large volume of new kids will enter the pay-to-play market, prices will stabilize or drop slightly and the general level of competition will go down. Maybe the Platinum division of SDL is needed after all...starting at U5.

Nothing against indies having the right to sell players, but the clubs are better suited to develop talent, in theory. If FCD stays on task with putting their home grown kids on the field, the top kids will move to them at early ages as the potential payout increases...

If the MLS develops into a league that can afford higher salaries and higher transfer fees, then I could foresee a system where the independent clubs develop their players and at U15 or so they try to sell them to FCD, LA Galaxy, Chivas USA etc. The indies can sell one kid a year ( if the transfer fees are high enough) and stay in business and the MLS teams get a pipeline of players to choose from.

But, you would have to lock those players into the indies and not simply let them go to FCD or some other team without he indie being compensated. Finish1JR could not play at Ayses from age 5-15 and then simply go to FCD. FCD would have to pay for the time Finish1jr spent learning the game at Ayses.

Not sure it is feasible as it would require a lot of changes from the current system. But until then, I see 3K for select soccer as the status quo.

by finish1 6/25/2013, 3:40 pm

Interesting model. That would tie all the clubs together and may raise the bar on player competency. Clubs would have a vested self interest in developing exceptional players...not to forget the ever important double dip into the funding pool.

by finish1 6/25/2013, 3:49 pm

If I may add, I don't see a lot of players sticking with a major club, being developed from 5-15, then jumping ship to FCD.

I have seen quite a few kids start at the smaller indies, jump to the larger ones after U11, then land at FCD around U15/U16.

by Rightback 6/25/2013, 5:42 pm

Sprint wrote:
Rightback wrote:Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

I understand that many people often comment that the price of select soccer is too high etc, and about this time of year, it becomes front and center as our kids enter contracts. The question is, what do we expect the coaches to do? I see people that think it should be free and clubs should only pick the best kids regardless if they can pay etc... How do we expect the clubs to stay in business if we do not pay for the coaching fees, administration etc?

The clubs are not selling players, so that line of revenue is gone. The only other thing is to charge for the coaching and services provided by the club. I do not do my job for free and would not expect a coach to spend as much time with my kids as the coaches do and for it to be free. I am not sure why that idea is so prevalent in NTX soccer that is should be free. If you do not want to pay, then there are dad coached teams, rec teams etc.

Until the clubs figure out how to make money off developing players ( ie sell them) there is no option but to charge for the services by the clubs and not sure why so many get up in arms about it. I would prefer to keep my money in my pocket, but I also don't like that it costs me $50 to take my family out to Chilis. But, I don't expect them to feed and serve my family for free.

I guess I agree - i just think professionally coached club level ball with a high fee should be the exception and not the rule...i don't expect anyone to agree with me...i just think that Little League and Pony League Baseball have been the backbone of baseball greatness in the USA...and playgrounds all over America have provided the backbone of basketball. Most kids had volunteer coaches if they had a coach at all until they were in high school...at which time 15-18 years of age, they were tagged at 'elite' athletes. Most football players in the USA don't see a professional coach until high school or college...my .02. You want the USA to produce great players? Where did they find Neymar? I think he was playing on a beach in Brasil when he was discovered...never having been coached by anyone...

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