Re: Youth Soccer Needs (Another) Overhaul

by Rightback 6/25/2013, 5:42 pm

Sprint wrote:
Rightback wrote:Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

I understand that many people often comment that the price of select soccer is too high etc, and about this time of year, it becomes front and center as our kids enter contracts. The question is, what do we expect the coaches to do? I see people that think it should be free and clubs should only pick the best kids regardless if they can pay etc... How do we expect the clubs to stay in business if we do not pay for the coaching fees, administration etc?

The clubs are not selling players, so that line of revenue is gone. The only other thing is to charge for the coaching and services provided by the club. I do not do my job for free and would not expect a coach to spend as much time with my kids as the coaches do and for it to be free. I am not sure why that idea is so prevalent in NTX soccer that is should be free. If you do not want to pay, then there are dad coached teams, rec teams etc.

Until the clubs figure out how to make money off developing players ( ie sell them) there is no option but to charge for the services by the clubs and not sure why so many get up in arms about it. I would prefer to keep my money in my pocket, but I also don't like that it costs me $50 to take my family out to Chilis. But, I don't expect them to feed and serve my family for free.

I guess I agree - i just think professionally coached club level ball with a high fee should be the exception and not the rule...i don't expect anyone to agree with me...i just think that Little League and Pony League Baseball have been the backbone of baseball greatness in the USA...and playgrounds all over America have provided the backbone of basketball. Most kids had volunteer coaches if they had a coach at all until they were in high school...at which time 15-18 years of age, they were tagged at 'elite' athletes. Most football players in the USA don't see a professional coach until high school or college...my .02. You want the USA to produce great players? Where did they find Neymar? I think he was playing on a beach in Brasil when he was discovered...never having been coached by anyone...

by Guest 6/25/2013, 8:36 pm

This thread is full of LOL's. I needed a good laugh after the day I just had.

by omega striker 6/25/2013, 10:29 pm

Sprint wrote:
finish1 wrote:True. I will add that the competition for our dollars just ratcheted up big time with the invasion of Rush. My bet is a large volume of new kids will enter the pay-to-play market, prices will stabilize or drop slightly and the general level of competition will go down. Maybe the Platinum division of SDL is needed after all...starting at U5.

Nothing against indies having the right to sell players, but the clubs are better suited to develop talent, in theory. If FCD stays on task with putting their home grown kids on the field, the top kids will move to them at early ages as the potential payout increases...

If the MLS develops into a league that can afford higher salaries and higher transfer fees, then I could foresee a system where the independent clubs develop their players and at U15 or so they try to sell them to FCD, LA Galaxy, Chivas USA etc. The indies can sell one kid a year ( if the transfer fees are high enough) and stay in business and the MLS teams get a pipeline of players to choose from.

But, you would have to lock those players into the indies and not simply let them go to FCD or some other team without he indie being compensated. Finish1JR could not play at Ayses from age 5-15 and then simply go to FCD. FCD would have to pay for the time Finish1jr spent learning the game at Ayses.

Not sure it is feasible as it would require a lot of changes from the current system. But until then, I see 3K for select soccer as the status quo.

hmm interesting then what is lets say.... cali doing that's different? how is the majority of their big club fees almost half of the 3k you mention that ntx charges(not including uniforms and of course tourneys) and their cost of living is higher than ours? scratch

by Rooneyhasplugs 6/26/2013, 8:20 am

rdeal486 wrote:This thread is full of LOL's. I needed a good laugh after the day I just had.

solid post. Lots of insight. Nice addition to the thread. Great job on your part.

by go99 6/26/2013, 8:37 am

Maybe we should accept not every kid playing soccer wants to go pro and play on the national team. Split the development model so you can serve both kids. AL was supposed to be that split but it didn't work out that way. Maybe split the AL. Oh and maybe the MLS clubs don't pay the other clubs for players but put in the rule that any money that they get for a transfer has to give a percentage to the kids club. Now the problem with those clubs getting any money is that if the parent is paying then there shouldn't be any fee. Also at regionals heard some people talking about clubs like LA Galaxy becoming a player turnstile. They bring in players for 2 yrs (so they get the player rights) and then send them back to their clubs. So instead of really developing talents they are just signing as much as they can in hopes of profitting of it.

by Number13 6/26/2013, 9:29 am

Rightback wrote: I guess I agree - i just think professionally coached club level ball with a high fee should be the exception and not the rule...i don't expect anyone to agree with me...i just think that Little League and Pony League Baseball have been the backbone of baseball greatness in the USA...and playgrounds all over America have provided the backbone of basketball. Most kids had volunteer coaches if they had a coach at all until they were in high school...at which time 15-18 years of age, they were tagged at 'elite' athletes. Most football players in the USA don't see a professional coach until high school or college...my .02. You want the USA to produce great players? Where did they find Neymar? I think he was playing on a beach in Brasil when he was discovered...never having been coached by anyone...

I definitely agree with you that what works in those sports is not what we do in soccer.

I'm sure Neymar just took a soccer ball to the beach, never was exposed to anything else, and just became awesome on his own...kicking the ball from one end to the other.

The problem is the environment. There are millions of dads qualified to teach kids about basketball, and football, and baseball. We all played it. We all played it A LOT. We all grew up in environments where everybody you knew played all those sports and you played it in your backyard, or on the courts, all the time. We all know people who went to college on scholarships in those sports and most of us probably know some who did so professionally. We all grew up knowing all the professional athletes in those sports and thinking we wanted to be the next multimillion dollar second baseman, QB, or point guard. There is a culture of (free) "excellence" here in all of those sports.

That is the way soccer is everywhere else in the world. There is no soccer culture of excellence here. In mainstream American culture, soccer is s*-tastic. MLS is the WNBA.

My older son loves soccer. When he decided he loved soccer I knew NOBODY who knew anything about soccer (other than me). NOBODY. Enter the paid coach, and frankly I think its been a huge help. Yes, I think your kid would develop more without a paid coach if you sent him to live in Germany or Argentina.....but if you stay here, where exactly is your kid going to learn to play? Down at the favela? At the pickup games naturally organized by all the kids in the area and occasionally frequented by the past local stars who made good? I think the only way to change things is very gradually. The demographics of the country are changing, soccer is gaining a toehold, but it still has a long way to go before there is enough endemic knowledge/love that you don't need some mercenary experts. I think its obvious that having a nation that loves soccer will produce better players than our current model, but we don't have that.

And even now, my soccer-loving kids play way more pickup basketball and football then soccer. Very Happy

by Sprint 6/26/2013, 1:57 pm

Rightback wrote:
Sprint wrote:
Rightback wrote:Meh. Basketball is about to fall off a cliff in the USA because kids in Europe are being taught to play well technically...their only shot of competing against USA playground kids. As our kids went inside to play Playstation, we lost the advantage. Soccer just needs the kids that love it to play more, have more fun, and to learn the fundamentals. Not going to happen cause too many grown men wantto get paid to teach them.

I understand that many people often comment that the price of select soccer is too high etc, and about this time of year, it becomes front and center as our kids enter contracts. The question is, what do we expect the coaches to do? I see people that think it should be free and clubs should only pick the best kids regardless if they can pay etc... How do we expect the clubs to stay in business if we do not pay for the coaching fees, administration etc?

The clubs are not selling players, so that line of revenue is gone. The only other thing is to charge for the coaching and services provided by the club. I do not do my job for free and would not expect a coach to spend as much time with my kids as the coaches do and for it to be free. I am not sure why that idea is so prevalent in NTX soccer that is should be free. If you do not want to pay, then there are dad coached teams, rec teams etc.

Until the clubs figure out how to make money off developing players ( ie sell them) there is no option but to charge for the services by the clubs and not sure why so many get up in arms about it. I would prefer to keep my money in my pocket, but I also don't like that it costs me $50 to take my family out to Chilis. But, I don't expect them to feed and serve my family for free.

I guess I agree - i just think professionally coached club level ball with a high fee should be the exception and not the rule...i don't expect anyone to agree with me...i just think that Little League and Pony League Baseball have been the backbone of baseball greatness in the USA...and playgrounds all over America have provided the backbone of basketball. Most kids had volunteer coaches if they had a coach at all until they were in high school...at which time 15-18 years of age, they were tagged at 'elite' athletes. Most football players in the USA don't see a professional coach until high school or college...my .02. You want the USA to produce great players? Where did they find Neymar? I think he was playing on a beach in Brasil when he was discovered...never having been coached by anyone...

I don't disagree with your thought, but as someone else said, the culture in America does not support grassroots soccer the way other countries do, so in order for them to get time on the ball, it will more than likely come from a team with a coach etc. I go back to the ability to sell players, therefore allowing the club to have a bankroll of cash to spend looking for the next great player to sell.

I read an article recently about Neymar and he was discovered playing on the beach at about 5 years old, while watching his dad and uncles play ( who happen to be ex pro players) He was then attached to a coach of sorts and off he went. He signed with Santos when still very young and in their academy from then on. Santos just sold him for upwards of 75 million, allowing them plenty of money to pay coaches, pay for facilities, and look for the next Neymar. They can let the next generation of players play for free as they have enough from selling Neymar to float them for awhile.

by Sprint 6/26/2013, 2:02 pm

omega striker wrote:
Sprint wrote:
finish1 wrote:True. I will add that the competition for our dollars just ratcheted up big time with the invasion of Rush. My bet is a large volume of new kids will enter the pay-to-play market, prices will stabilize or drop slightly and the general level of competition will go down. Maybe the Platinum division of SDL is needed after all...starting at U5.

Nothing against indies having the right to sell players, but the clubs are better suited to develop talent, in theory. If FCD stays on task with putting their home grown kids on the field, the top kids will move to them at early ages as the potential payout increases...

If the MLS develops into a league that can afford higher salaries and higher transfer fees, then I could foresee a system where the independent clubs develop their players and at U15 or so they try to sell them to FCD, LA Galaxy, Chivas USA etc. The indies can sell one kid a year ( if the transfer fees are high enough) and stay in business and the MLS teams get a pipeline of players to choose from.

But, you would have to lock those players into the indies and not simply let them go to FCD or some other team without he indie being compensated. Finish1JR could not play at Ayses from age 5-15 and then simply go to FCD. FCD would have to pay for the time Finish1jr spent learning the game at Ayses.

Not sure it is feasible as it would require a lot of changes from the current system. But until then, I see 3K for select soccer as the status quo.

hmm interesting then what is lets say.... cali doing that's different? how is the majority of their big club fees almost half of the 3k you mention that ntx charges(not including uniforms and of course tourneys) and their cost of living is higher than ours?

I don't know how they do it in Cal, maybe their parents refuse to pay the fees and it works for them. Maybe the coaches make less and they are happy with it. Maybe the market will not bear 3K for soccer. Maybe they are subsidized in a different manner.

by Number13 6/26/2013, 2:07 pm

Sprint wrote:
I don't know how they do it in Cal, maybe their parents refuse to pay the fees and it works for them. Maybe the coaches make less and they are happy with it. Maybe the market will not bear 3K for soccer. Maybe they are subsidized in a different manner.

I could be wrong, but it sounded like the California guys said their's cost (around) half as much. But that was just what they paid the coach/club. Leagues, uniforms, local tourneys, etc were all on top of that. If you figure out what part of ours went to the coach/club, it wasn't that much different. Again, maybe I misunderstood.

by Sprint 6/26/2013, 2:14 pm

Number13 wrote:
Sprint wrote:
I don't know how they do it in Cal, maybe their parents refuse to pay the fees and it works for them. Maybe the coaches make less and they are happy with it. Maybe the market will not bear 3K for soccer. Maybe they are subsidized in a different manner.

I could be wrong, but it sounded like the California guys said their's cost (around) half as much. But that was just what they paid the coach/club. Leagues, uniforms, local tourneys, etc were all on top of that. If you figure out what part of ours went to the coach/club, it wasn't that much different. Again, maybe I misunderstood.

I think I heard the same thing during some conversations with folks from Cali at the Supercopa. But, I could be wrong as I was too worried watching games and hoping all the free kicks from half-field didn't go in. Smile

by Guest 6/27/2013, 6:42 am

Number13 wrote:
Sprint wrote:
I don't know how they do it in Cal, maybe their parents refuse to pay the fees and it works for them. Maybe the coaches make less and they are happy with it. Maybe the market will not bear 3K for soccer. Maybe they are subsidized in a different manner.

I could be wrong, but it sounded like the California guys said their's cost (around) half as much. But that was just what they paid the coach/club. Leagues, uniforms, local tourneys, etc were all on top of that. If you figure out what part of ours went to the coach/club, it wasn't that much different. Again, maybe I misunderstood.

you misunderstood everything but tournaments and travel is included!

sometimes i wish ntx would price match kind of like walmart does lol!

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