PA players helping struggling teams

finish1 wrote:M2C, competitive soccer is getting younger. Remember the old days when CL had all the top kids from U11-U18? Then DA changed that and CL only got the better kids until U15. Today, the top of CL is effectively D2 beyond U12.

Last year, PA brought competitive soccer down to U11, which in theory would render CL a second tier league from the get go. The customer base has demanded a change. NTSSA/CL can change with it or continue to sit back and watch its' business model wither away.

Speaking of competitive. Have you noticed that the '04 age group has put together a national tournament? Players from all over America are coming to Dallas to play in a competitive environment. These are U9 players! A lot of them are developmentally more than ready to play up this year.

I don't completely agree with the CL D1 being D2. I know of academy players that got turned away from top 96 D1 teams. There are others that could clearly play academy but for a variety of reasons do not. Aside from the top teams and the top players I do not see a large a divide.

The fact that there is the 04 national tournament re-enforces my point of there are venues for them without going full competitive.
#13 the age cut off has to do with Developmental Psychology in children along with some physiological factors. The way you feel about them seprating friends tells me you have not been around many cuts. Friends get cut with no notice sometimes. With todays texting and facebook if they are true friends it will survive the cuts. My 17 year old has teammates from years back that live 30-60 minutes away still come over for a night or weekend.

Agree with Go here

OK, let's take up the argument about competitive soccer.

Klinsmann was the driving force behind the U13/U14 DA. He has even hinted at U12. His point is that players at the early ages need more practice and fewer games. He also talked about eliminating the U13/U14 National Championship as it puts too much emphasis on winning.

So, the new competitive landscape will be U11 and U12 as PA. Then DA at U13 and up. A U10 player can certainly play up in the U11 PA. A super gifted U9 player could also play up. No problem.

If you believe that is not going to impact NTSSA and CL, then just ignore it, maybe it will go away. Yes, the more serious players are leaving CL at the earliest ages, which waters down the league, starting at U11.

I do not think that anybody in this forum will argue against more touches on the ball as a means to get better. The question is whether more formal practices is the answer especially with some of the coaching that goes around in North Texas. Soccer is a game that requires creativity and for some of us creativity is best developed with at least 1-2 informal sessions per week (so called pick-up games with no or very little adult supervision). The intention of the US Soccer Federation is very good the means can be argued.

finish1 wrote:OK, let's take up the argument about competitive soccer.

Klinsmann was the driving force behind the U13/U14 DA. He has even hinted at U12. His point is that players at the early ages need more practice and fewer games. He also talked about eliminating the U13/U14 National Championship as it puts too much emphasis on winning.

So, the new competitive landscape will be U11 and U12 as PA. Then DA at U13 and up. A U10 player can certainly play up in the U11 PA. A super gifted U9 player could also play up. No problem.

If you believe that is not going to impact NTSSA and CL, then just ignore it, maybe it will go away. Yes, the more serious players are leaving CL at the earliest ages, which waters down the league, starting at U11.

The formats and rules aren't watering down CL the parents and clubs are. When you watch the webinar on the 13/14 AL one of the first things they are clear on in this is not for everyone. It is not for the multi sport athlete, it is for the soccer focused and develomental with no championship for 13/14 a 10 month season and mandetory winter futsal. Of course parents will rush to put their kids in and then complain that they can't play school sports or get the great experience of school soccer and playing in front of their classmates. They will complain about all of the practice or the fact that there is no championship. AL is not meant to be the top league. It should not have "all" of the best players. It should have soccer focused kids who are looking to develope their talent. But what it probably will be is clubs putting together big athletic team to try and "win" the league. It will be full or parents who say this is the best league so we have to play there.

Agreed the DA is not for everyone and should be only for the kids who are serious about soccer and only play one sport. It is THE chosen pathway for players with ambition for the USMNT.

I believe by rule the kids who are more focused on soccer are the most talented with only a few exceptions. Which in turn would make AL the top league at every age group.

go99 wrote:

finish1 wrote:OK, let's take up the argument about competitive soccer.

Klinsmann was the driving force behind the U13/U14 DA. He has even hinted at U12. His point is that players at the early ages need more practice and fewer games. He also talked about eliminating the U13/U14 National Championship as it puts too much emphasis on winning.

So, the new competitive landscape will be U11 and U12 as PA. Then DA at U13 and up. A U10 player can certainly play up in the U11 PA. A super gifted U9 player could also play up. No problem.

If you believe that is not going to impact NTSSA and CL, then just ignore it, maybe it will go away. Yes, the more serious players are leaving CL at the earliest ages, which waters down the league, starting at U11.

The formats and rules aren't watering down CL the parents and clubs are. When you watch the webinar on the 13/14 AL one of the first things they are clear on in this is not for everyone. It is not for the multi sport athlete, it is for the soccer focused and develomental with no championship for 13/14 a 10 month season and mandetory winter futsal. Of course parents will rush to put their kids in and then complain that they can't play school sports or get the great experience of school soccer and playing in front of their classmates. They will complain about all of the practice or the fact that there is no championship. AL is not meant to be the top league. It should not have "all" of the best players. It should have soccer focused kids who are looking to develope their talent. But what it probably will be is clubs putting together big athletic team to try and "win" the league. It will be full or parents who say this is the best league so we have to play there.

Old habits die hard. The clubs compete for players (and revenue)Therefore true development is a secondary consideration.

This isn't rocket science. The emphasis should be 80% technical up until U14. Then slowly move to the tactical emphasis.

if parents equate trophies with individual success...that is a 'recreational' mindset.

It's a disease that now has infected all of youth sport. Not just soccer. It is just more evident (our shortcomings) because it is a global game.

Another point: while many of the AL coaches are fantastic, there are some that aren't so great. Most, if not all, have spent years in the BSF NTX mindset---and that mentality isn't necessarily leaving because they changed leagues. Are the coaches being coached about how to do it better?

One of the things they need to learn is how to talk to and motivate parents so that the parents will be supportive of the needed changes.

I think if you took only the soccer focused talent and chose those that displayed the athletic traits for soccer you would not have the best team at the younger ages of AL. From what I have seen of PA and some AL teams there is still a big focus on size, strength, and straight line top end speed. What I do see is quite a few kids that lack the natural touch or soft feet. I see lots of plodding slow feet with long strides instead of quick feet and explosive 5yd speed. We constantly hear the whining and complaining on the boards "boo hoo my kid can't play highschool etc", "the ones to tens of school fans won't be able to see him." I just wonder then why are they in the AL. If done correctly CL or whatever league is around would be every bit as competitive if not more so. The soccer and development just wouldn't be as good.

Laimport wrote:

omega striker wrote:

finish1 wrote:M2C, competitive soccer is getting younger. Remember the old days when CL had all the top kids from U11-U18? Then DA changed that and CL only got the better kids until U15. Today, the top of CL is effectively D2 beyond U12.

Last year, PA brought competitive soccer down to U11, which in theory would render CL a second tier league from the get go. The customer base has demanded a change. NTSSA/CL can change with it or continue to sit back and watch its' business model wither away.

Speaking of competitive. Have you noticed that the '04 age group has put together a national tournament? Players from all over America are coming to Dallas to play in a competitive environment. These are U9 players! A lot of them are developmentally more than ready to play up this year.

parents took this and ran with it! wasnt pre academy suppose to be a developmental league and not an "elite" league?

Exactly.

here's the real issue. You can't have "leagues" and development. But that goes against all the competing youth soccer entities' business models.

Elsewhere in the world, competition is minimized (in terms of leagues) and the kids play 3v3, 4v4, etc. Nowhere do they play full sided soccer at u11. And very few do it at u12.

Competition (in terms of results) isn't even a consideration until at least u16. Even in England, EPL Academy teams don't play in a league until u17/18.

The overwhelming emphasis is on the basics. And the preteen years they begin to implement tactics. However, the emphasis on tactics is on that given club's first team style.

So, in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if PA becomes DA or even whether PA players are playing CL games.

It's all about the short term results and the subsequent money it brings in.

Parents will continue to equate winning short term with long term success.

As proof that the system isn't working..just check out our last national team game. Or even the u20's from last night.

Sadly that wont work here. Soccer is the only game in town in the rest of the world. Here it has many sports competing for kids. I agree their model produces better players but frankly i cant imagine american kids practicing and not playing competitively until 16 years old. Soccer would die.

Soccerinsanity wrote:Another point: while many of the AL coaches are fantastic, there are some that aren't so great. Most, if not all, have spent years in the BSF NTX mindset---and that mentality isn't necessarily leaving because they changed leagues. Are the coaches being coached about how to do it better?

One of the things they need to learn is how to talk to and motivate parents so that the parents will be supportive of the needed changes.

Now I would agree that the same crappy coaches will get the same crappy results. I think you can change that by putting clubs out of the AL based on what they produce.

I don't think they need to worry about parents. They need to explain what the league is and what its purpose is and start the weeding out with the parents. Development requires alot of sacrifice. Not only by the player but the whole family. If they are unwilling to make that sacrifice then you are wasting time and money to even begin. It's not supposed to be a hey look at me I'm in the best league. It for a dedicated kid to see how far his talent and hardwork can take him. Most will not make the finish line of pro or national team. Some will make college and some won't.

I remeber talking to a dad who did baseball when my bb was in academy. He talked about a local teen who had started to get scouted by pro teams. He said that they (the coaches) had a meeting with the family to explain the kids opportunity and what he would need to do to go forward. They explained the sacrifice that the entire family would have to make for him. they left it for the family to make a decision.

Put under that I think you will find quite a few families and kids will say I just want to play some soccer, compete and win some games, play for my school maybe try out football and enjoy. I don't want to give up multiple hours a day, weekends hanging out, connecting with school friends. There is nothing wrong with that and that is what classic league is for. the AL is an attempt to do something for US soccer without completely altering the soccer experience for everyone.

soccerisgood123 wrote:

Laimport wrote:

omega striker wrote:

finish1 wrote:M2C, competitive soccer is getting younger. Remember the old days when CL had all the top kids from U11-U18? Then DA changed that and CL only got the better kids until U15. Today, the top of CL is effectively D2 beyond U12.

Last year, PA brought competitive soccer down to U11, which in theory would render CL a second tier league from the get go. The customer base has demanded a change. NTSSA/CL can change with it or continue to sit back and watch its' business model wither away.

Speaking of competitive. Have you noticed that the '04 age group has put together a national tournament? Players from all over America are coming to Dallas to play in a competitive environment. These are U9 players! A lot of them are developmentally more than ready to play up this year.

parents took this and ran with it! wasnt pre academy suppose to be a developmental league and not an "elite" league?

Exactly.

here's the real issue. You can't have "leagues" and development. But that goes against all the competing youth soccer entities' business models.

Elsewhere in the world, competition is minimized (in terms of leagues) and the kids play 3v3, 4v4, etc. Nowhere do they play full sided soccer at u11. And very few do it at u12.

Competition (in terms of results) isn't even a consideration until at least u16. Even in England, EPL Academy teams don't play in a league until u17/18.

The overwhelming emphasis is on the basics. And the preteen years they begin to implement tactics. However, the emphasis on tactics is on that given club's first team style.

So, in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if PA becomes DA or even whether PA players are playing CL games.

It's all about the short term results and the subsequent money it brings in.

Parents will continue to equate winning short term with long term success.

As proof that the system isn't working..just check out our last national team game. Or even the u20's from last night.

Sadly that wont work here. Soccer is the only game in town in the rest of the world. Here it has many sports competing for kids. I agree their model produces better players but frankly i cant imagine american kids practicing and not playing competitively until 16 years old. Soccer would die.

Thats just it SIG you don't ask all kids to do it. Most of the kids should play soccer just as it is now. But there are kids who want to do nothing more than be really good at soccer. US soccer needs millions of kids playing soccer. That your fan base of tomorrow. But it also has to improve the quality of the player it produces.

go99 wrote:

soccerisgood123 wrote:

Laimport wrote:

omega striker wrote:

finish1 wrote:M2C, competitive soccer is getting younger. Remember the old days when CL had all the top kids from U11-U18? Then DA changed that and CL only got the better kids until U15. Today, the top of CL is effectively D2 beyond U12.

Last year, PA brought competitive soccer down to U11, which in theory would render CL a second tier league from the get go. The customer base has demanded a change. NTSSA/CL can change with it or continue to sit back and watch its' business model wither away.

Speaking of competitive. Have you noticed that the '04 age group has put together a national tournament? Players from all over America are coming to Dallas to play in a competitive environment. These are U9 players! A lot of them are developmentally more than ready to play up this year.

parents took this and ran with it! wasnt pre academy suppose to be a developmental league and not an "elite" league?

Exactly.

here's the real issue. You can't have "leagues" and development. But that goes against all the competing youth soccer entities' business models.

Elsewhere in the world, competition is minimized (in terms of leagues) and the kids play 3v3, 4v4, etc. Nowhere do they play full sided soccer at u11. And very few do it at u12.

Competition (in terms of results) isn't even a consideration until at least u16. Even in England, EPL Academy teams don't play in a league until u17/18.

The overwhelming emphasis is on the basics. And the preteen years they begin to implement tactics. However, the emphasis on tactics is on that given club's first team style.

So, in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if PA becomes DA or even whether PA players are playing CL games.

It's all about the short term results and the subsequent money it brings in.

Parents will continue to equate winning short term with long term success.

As proof that the system isn't working..just check out our last national team game. Or even the u20's from last night.

Sadly that wont work here. Soccer is the only game in town in the rest of the world. Here it has many sports competing for kids. I agree their model produces better players but frankly i cant imagine american kids practicing and not playing competitively until 16 years old. Soccer would die.

Thats just it SIG you don't ask all kids to do it. Most of the kids should play soccer just as it is now. But there are kids who want to do nothing more than be really good at soccer. US soccer needs millions of kids playing soccer. That your fan base of tomorrow. But it also has to improve the quality of the player it produces.

I agree with what you have written but the poster i quoted said that very few play competitively until 16. That model wont work here but their should be a system like you have described that is primarily development oriented with no league play, but we always corrupt that idea it seems

I think we can't get over the idea that 1 league is better than another or is the "top" league. Instead of being able to look at the leagues and saying what best suits the needs, and desires of me and my child.

Instead we rush to the "top" league because it suits my ego and then change and corrupt it to suit us or at least complain about it because it doesn't.

Anyway hopefully next year will see many 99's return to classic league. Highschool soccer will be there and many may want to take a shot at football.

soccerisgood123 wrote:

go99 wrote:

soccerisgood123 wrote:

Laimport wrote:

omega striker wrote:

finish1 wrote:M2C, competitive soccer is getting younger. Remember the old days when CL had all the top kids from U11-U18? Then DA changed that and CL only got the better kids until U15. Today, the top of CL is effectively D2 beyond U12.

Last year, PA brought competitive soccer down to U11, which in theory would render CL a second tier league from the get go. The customer base has demanded a change. NTSSA/CL can change with it or continue to sit back and watch its' business model wither away.

Speaking of competitive. Have you noticed that the '04 age group has put together a national tournament? Players from all over America are coming to Dallas to play in a competitive environment. These are U9 players! A lot of them are developmentally more than ready to play up this year.

parents took this and ran with it! wasnt pre academy suppose to be a developmental league and not an "elite" league?

Exactly.

here's the real issue. You can't have "leagues" and development. But that goes against all the competing youth soccer entities' business models.

Elsewhere in the world, competition is minimized (in terms of leagues) and the kids play 3v3, 4v4, etc. Nowhere do they play full sided soccer at u11. And very few do it at u12.

Competition (in terms of results) isn't even a consideration until at least u16. Even in England, EPL Academy teams don't play in a league until u17/18.

The overwhelming emphasis is on the basics. And the preteen years they begin to implement tactics. However, the emphasis on tactics is on that given club's first team style.

So, in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter if PA becomes DA or even whether PA players are playing CL games.

It's all about the short term results and the subsequent money it brings in.

Parents will continue to equate winning short term with long term success.

As proof that the system isn't working..just check out our last national team game. Or even the u20's from last night.

Sadly that wont work here. Soccer is the only game in town in the rest of the world. Here it has many sports competing for kids. I agree their model produces better players but frankly i cant imagine american kids practicing and not playing competitively until 16 years old. Soccer would die.

Thats just it SIG you don't ask all kids to do it. Most of the kids should play soccer just as it is now. But there are kids who want to do nothing more than be really good at soccer. US soccer needs millions of kids playing soccer. That your fan base of tomorrow. But it also has to improve the quality of the player it produces.

I agree with what you have written but the poster i quoted said that very few play competitively until 16. That model wont work here but their should be a system like you have described that is primarily development oriented with no league play, but we always corrupt that idea it seems

SIG, I think you misunderstood my point. i didn't mean to imply that competitive soccer should begin at 16...I just said that the majority of academy players abroad don't play in "leagues". And that results are way down the list of priorities. They are training individual players in a group setting.

Here, it is all about developing teams. And there is a huge difference in those two ideologies.

Also, soccer ain't 'the only game in town' in Europe. mens volleyball, team handball and hockey (particularly eastern Europe and Scandinavia) are pretty big. Plus there's tennis, cycling and a host of other sports that compete for athletes.

Yeah, soccer is generally THE most popular sport. But, believe me there is serious competition with other sports.

personally, I'm an advocate of kids playing multiple sports...up to a certain age. (High school age.) I think the cross training benefits outweigh the negatives.

There are plenty of EPL players that played other sports well into their teens.

It's just that you can't put the soccer ball away for months at a time.

this is what this topic has become!

allen04 wrote:http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/FAQs.aspx#2



...and this page has a video for those of you with reading comprehension issues.

[url=http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/U-13-14-Program-Application.aspx

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/U-13-14-Program-Application.aspx[/quote[/url]]

so it says that u13/u14 da will be opened up to clubs who currently don't have u15/u16 & u17/u18 da teams. seems like the perfect opportunity for liverpool to step in. does anyone see any other ntx club with a chance of getting a team in? tfc, dfw tejanos, ntx strikers, tx lightning, odyssey?

Liverpool. Maybe ayses but not too many others because of the increased cost that the club has to carry. Its a risky move that could put a small club under

Real Barcelona wrote:
Just wondering why you would want some ringers to help you do something in your league. If you get the ringers and they get you out of relegation then it will be a cycle for you guys each season. the boys on the team will become reliable on them each season or they will become disgruntled because the coach brought in the ringers in the first place.

I would like duel rostering simply so we can play a game with more than 1 or 2 subs and not have to play another game 9 v 11.

I'm not against dual rostering.

If it helps players that perhaps aren't getting enough minutes in their PA league games.

It's common practice elsewhere in the world. Although usually it is for a player to get experience playing against better (older) competition.

Although that may not be the purpose from the club's perspective in NTX.

at then end of the day I would care less if a PA players comes down to play as long as its not my kids minutes he is taking.

go99 wrote:at then end of the day I would care less if a PA players comes down to play as long as its not my kids minutes he is taking.

Good point. can't blame you at all.

But that is the feeling of most parents concerning transfers and guest players.

Tough for everyone involved.

That's why I always seek honest, no bs feedback from coaches on where mine rates on the depth chart.

Laimport wrote:

go99 wrote:at then end of the day I would care less if a PA players comes down to play as long as its not my kids minutes he is taking.

Good point. can't blame you at all.

But that is the feeling of most parents concerning transfers and guest players.

Tough for everyone involved.

That's why I always seek honest, no bs feedback from coaches on where mine rates on the depth chart.

Course that doesn't always work either.

Probably worse in NTX...LOL!

Good luck on getting that from most coaches. Most lack the knowledge, understanding, or integrity to provide that kind of feedback

Exactly. Why I pointed out the inherent difficulty in getting it.

I still think when the PA players comes in to help save you he should get to date your girlfriend too. That or maybe they should bring in the PA coach