New Substitution Rule U15 +

Old news but any new input?
Effective July 1, 2009

Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

The Classic League is trying to prepare its players for a higher level of competition. They are mirroring rules used by many other competitions around the country. Soccer, at the top level, is a game meant to be played with limited subs. For those who want to play soccer with more frequent subs, there are many more developmental leagues at a lower level of competition that allow free substitutions. It is a choice that more players/families will make once they become more familiar with the implications on how much time players get in games.

The following competitions play this same rule:
USYSA National Championship tournament
USYSA National League
USSF Super-Y League
NCAA plays the same rule with a modification that players may re-enter once in second half.
The ODP Regional and National Championships and USSF Academy competitions allow 7 subs with no re-entry for the game.

Most of these competitions use player cards handed to the AR each half when players sub in so that play entry onto the field is tracked. Cards are returned to the coach for use in the second half. I have not seen any indication of how the Classic League intends to implement this rule.

south wrote:The Classic League is trying to prepare its players for a higher level of competition. They are mirroring rules used by many other competitions around the country. Soccer, at the top level, is a game meant to be played with limited subs. For those who want to play soccer with more frequent subs, there are many more developmental leagues at a lower level of competition that allow free substitutions. It is a choice that more players/families will make once they become more familiar with the implications on how much time players get in games.

The following competitions play this same rule:
USYSA National Championship tournament
USYSA National League
USSF Super-Y League
NCAA plays the same rule with a modification that players may re-enter once in second half.
The ODP Regional and National Championships and USSF Acedemy competitions allow 7 subs with no re-entry for the game.

Most of these competitions use player cards handed to the AR each half when players sub in so that play entry onto the field is tracked. Cards are retruned to the coach for use in the second half. I have not seen any indication of how the Classic League intends to implement this rule.

I appreciate your input - it provides a good level of the realities in select soccer for all parents that pay the fees to be involved in the sport.

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

Classic is a very good league but it is not any of the ones you quote. At U15 there are many developing players that will blow by the studs of the U15, 16 and 17 days when they mature. Ex. Michael Jordan got cut from JV basketball. These younger in age group or late developers should not have to go to Plano or Arlington because they are not able to go a full game. When kids are in growth spurts many times their knees or feet won't take that kind of pounding.Your talking about 14 year old kids. Implement it at u17 and up when the players are juniors and seniors, not when most are just going into freshmen year. Plus give it a year or two of clubs not being able to get more than 14 or 15 players signed. Who is going to pay the huge amounts that is select in NT to play in a league that is actively limiting development of bench players. We will see if the clubs that pushed this like eating the dues of 3 or 4 unfilled slots.

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

With the exception of one big club all the others weren't even present when the coaches voted on the rule change.

I'm not sure this helps the big clubs, or at least the top teams. They make money by keeping their rosters at the maximum allowed levels.

Players who do not get as much playing time because of this rule may decide to drop down a level of play and find a team where they can get more playing time.

If this happens it might reduce the number of times that you will see a DII or DIII team with 7 subs on the bench.

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

You don't call the above complaining? I'd hate hear you actually complain!

south wrote:I'm not sure this helps the big clubs, or at least the top teams. They make money by keeping their rosters at the maximum allowed levels.

Players who do not get as much playing time because of this rule may decide to drop down a level of play and find a team where they can get more playing time.

If this happens it might reduce the number of times that you will see a DII or DIII team with 7 subs on the bench.

Then implement this rule in D1 only. According to the elitists, that is the only place where players exist who will advance. Let the other division continue to work on development and enjoy playing competitively. This rule hurts players more than it helps. The only players who will have an advantage are the bottom of the starting line up, as they will get a bit more playing time.

This will also create more contention between the parents of the bench players and the coach. Why in the hell would I pay to have my son ride the pine.

It's about the Game - Let the kids play!

The German wrote:

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

With the exception of one big club all the others weren't even present when the coaches voted on the rule change.

This is true with the exception of Horst Bertl who ramrodded this in with ought the majority of coaches having input. The majority of coaches I have spoken to hate this change. Plus the league has not given direction as to how this would be implemented and the consequences of breaking it!

RedBaron wrote:

south wrote:I'm not sure this helps the big clubs, or at least the top teams. They make money by keeping their rosters at the maximum allowed levels.

Players who do not get as much playing time because of this rule may decide to drop down a level of play and find a team where they can get more playing time.

If this happens it might reduce the number of times that you will see a DII or DIII team with 7 subs on the bench.

Then implement this rule in D1 only. According to the elitists, that is the only place where players exist who will advance. Let the other division continue to work on development and enjoy playing competitively. This rule hurts players more than it helps. The only players who will have an advantage are the bottom of the starting line up, as they will get a bit more playing time.

This will also create more contention between the parents of the bench players and the coach. Why in the hell would I pay to have my son ride the pine.

It's about the Game - Let the kids play!

Amen redbaron !

soccerrus2 wrote:

The German wrote:

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

With the exception of one big club all the others weren't even present when the coaches voted on the rule change.

This is true with the exception of Horst Bertl who ramrodded this in with ought the majority of coaches having input. The majority of coaches I have spoken to hate this change. Plus the league has not given direction as to how this would be implemented and the consequences of breaking it!

If the majority of coaches decides not to show up at the coaches meeting to give their input/vote and complain afterwards - too bad, they all knew the agenda before the meeting.

The German wrote:

soccerrus2 wrote:

The German wrote:

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

With the exception of one big club all the others weren't even present when the coaches voted on the rule change.

This is true with the exception of Horst Bertl who ramrodded this in with ought the majority of coaches having input. The majority of coaches I have spoken to hate this change. Plus the league has not given direction as to how this would be implemented and the consequences of breaking it!

If the majority of coaches decides not to show up at the coaches meeting to give their input/vote and complain afterwards - too bad, they all knew the agenda before the meeting.

Oh sure that is looking out for the league as a whole! Why would you not contact DOC's of every local club and get their imput? Let the academy abide by the rule.

It was not a railroad job. Horst sent out the proposal at least 3 weeks in advance of the coaches' meeting.
DOCs had plenty of time to discuss with their coaches. I know that the club I was affiliated with did this.
All coaches were invited. Many chose not to attend. The proposal was discussed and voted on and accepted by the coaches. It was then forwarded to the Classic League as a proposal. Then the league board, with all of the factions involved there, decided to adopt this as a new league rule.

So, whether we like the rule or not, it was adopted with full openness within the coaches' committee and the league.

If parents don't like it, they should pass on their concerns to the coaches or to the league itself so that the rule can be reviewed after the season.

soccerrus2 wrote:

The German wrote:

soccerrus2 wrote:

The German wrote:

my2cents wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

my2cents wrote:Whats new to say. It sucked when they put it in, it will suck when it is enforced. Do we get a fourth official to track subs? or are we just going to waste time waiting for refs to record substitutions ? What was supposedly to get more toime for subs "because they can't be resubbed by starters" will kill play time and subsequent development of most bench players. STUPID rule. Too much subbing at the end of the match ? Very simple, rule 2a " with permission of the referee". If the coach plays that game then the ref simply tells him at the next request to sub to make all you have now because this is the last one I am allowing.

Your "2cents" aren't worth a penny. You complain about a process you know nothing about! And if you think it's so stupid, go yell at the coaches...they requested it.

I don't recall complaining about the process. I know it was the coaches and I have complained and debated with coaches. Sorry if your an administrator up there and I got your panties all wadded up. IMO the big clubs run most this stuff. That is not a diss of CL admin. They are the biggest customers, the 800 lb. gorillas. Thisrule is in the best interest of the big clubs, it is not in the best interest of the players.

With the exception of one big club all the others weren't even present when the coaches voted on the rule change.

This is true with the exception of Horst Bertl who ramrodded this in with ought the majority of coaches having input. The majority of coaches I have spoken to hate this change. Plus the league has not given direction as to how this would be implemented and the consequences of breaking it!

If the majority of coaches decides not to show up at the coaches meeting to give their input/vote and complain afterwards - too bad, they all knew the agenda before the meeting.

Oh sure that is looking out for the league as a whole! Why would you not contact DOC's of every local club and get their imput? Let the academy abide by the rule.

Most coaches love the new rule. They just tell the parents they hate it! That way, they're off the hook when players 12-20 sit on the bench and don't play.

south wrote:It was not a railroad job. Horst sent out the proposal at least 3 weeks in advance of the coaches' meeting.
DOCs had plenty of time to discuss with their coaches. I know that the club I was affiliated with did this.
All coaches were invited. Many chose not to attend. The proposal was discussed and voted on and accepted by the coaches. It was then forwarded to the Classic League as a proposal. Then the league board, with all of the factions involved there, decided to adopt this as a new league rule.

So, whether we like the rule or not, it was adopted with full openness within the coaches' committee and the league.

If parents don't like it, they should pass on their concerns to the coaches or to the league itself so that the rule can be reviewed after the season.

Not according to many of the coaches as well as referees I have spoken to. How are injuries handled? Having the ability to put in extra defenders or extra strikers on set pieces will be difficult. Why have a rule in place without consequences? Playing time doesn't concern me but it will lead to higher turnover within teams.
As far as how it was done? How many coaches were at the meeting? What was the count? Horst wanted this and his typical fashion got what he wanted. The board did approve this but in the last 20 years have they ever not approved a rule that came out of the coaches committee? This was more important then reevaluating the clubs keeping their byes with 0 returning players??

Honestly, I'm not sure I understand why there would be so much uproar about this. With an 18 player roster, seven subs per half means that everyone could play in each half, if that's what the coach wanted to do. He just can't keep them rotating them in and out like there was a revolving door at the bench. If the kids get winded after 15 minutes, then the problem is conditioning. And I don't agree with the freedom to bring players in for set pieces either.

Our team has been more-or-less following the U15+ substitution rules for years, and generally everyone plays, and we're not even at U15 yet.

soccerrus2 wrote:

south wrote:It was not a railroad job. Horst sent out the proposal at least 3 weeks in advance of the coaches' meeting.
DOCs had plenty of time to discuss with their coaches. I know that the club I was affiliated with did this.
All coaches were invited. Many chose not to attend. The proposal was discussed and voted on and accepted by the coaches. It was then forwarded to the Classic League as a proposal. Then the league board, with all of the factions involved there, decided to adopt this as a new league rule.

So, whether we like the rule or not, it was adopted with full openness within the coaches' committee and the league.

If parents don't like it, they should pass on their concerns to the coaches or to the league itself so that the rule can be reviewed after the season.

Not according to many of the coaches as well as referees I have spoken to. How are injuries handled? Having the ability to put in extra defenders or extra strikers on set pieces will be difficult. Why have a rule in place without consequences? Playing time doesn't concern me but it will lead to higher turnover within teams.
As far as how it was done? How many coaches were at the meeting? What was the count? Horst wanted this and his typical fashion got what he wanted. The board did approve this but in the last 20 years have they ever not approved a rule that came out of the coaches committee? This was more important then reevaluating the clubs keeping their byes with 0 returning players??

Huh? The refs had no say in this...nor do they even know how it is going to be implemented, as the league hasn't told them yet. There has been talk on procedures, but nothing announced.

happyfeet wrote:

Huh? The refs had no say in this...nor do they even know how it is going to be implemented, as the league hasn't told them yet. There has been talk on procedures, but nothing announced. [/quote]

Unless they are coaches as well....exactly waiting any day now

soccerrus2 wrote:

happyfeet wrote:

Huh? The refs had no say in this...nor do they even know how it is going to be implemented, as the league hasn't told them yet. There has been talk on procedures, but nothing announced.

Unless they are coaches as well....exactly waiting any day now

If no procedures have been announced, why are you worried about it? This isn't a bad rule. I don't know if it's a needed rule, but it's not a bad rule. Without seeing any details, the only reason I can think of that people would be upset is if their kids playing time might be affected. That may be true. If it is, maybe they should consider dropping down a division.... or two.

Then, maybe with less game time, they work harder in practice to gain more playing time. Competition among teammates is actually more important for development than games.

As a referee this has been discussed and the annual Classic League referee meeting. We were given directions on how this will be handled. It will be a pretty simple process and will not add more time to a normal sub.

scref wrote:As a referee this has been discussed and the annual Classic League referee meeting. We were given directions on how this will be handled. It will be a pretty simple process and will not add more time to a normal sub.

So what will be the process and more important, what if someone does re-enter a game?

The process will be the coaches are to have cards for the players that will be handed to AR1 (the AR that is on the side of the coaches) and will be kept till half time, if the player doesn't have a card they can not enter the game. At half time the cards will be returned to coach.

It is up to the referee to make sure that a player does not re-enter the game in the same half. The only exception is if the keeper gets hurt and must come off the field a keeper can be subbed for him that doesn't count against the 7 subs (or number of players) for the half. If the injured keeper re-enters the game they must do so as the keeper of it will be considered a sub.

Make sense?