Re: ODP Regional Camp Experience

by FGFF 9/1/2011, 10:26 am

Ibystander wrote:
FGFF wrote:
Running wrote:
omega striker wrote:
finish1 wrote:Read that article in the DMN last year just before the WC. Great story and very true. America has a twisted fascination with big, fast players, which is why we are not competitive beyond our borders.

Here is a nice goal by El Gringo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpZYvBG-8I

you would have better luck bashing your head thru a brickwall here in NTX

I would hate to be the contrarian here, but I don't see anything wrong with having a preference for bigger, faster, stronger players. This does not bode well for my kids as they are on the smaller side, but do all things being equal, if I were a coach, I would pick the bigger kid over the smaller kid any day. I have seen too many games where great, skilled, little players get run off the ball by a bigger kid with more speed. Additionally, who is to say the bigger kid will not develop skills just as good as the little guy as he ages. Unfortunately, size and speed are too things you can't train but everyone can get better skills.

Examples of bigger players are Ronaldo (Real Madrid, 6-3 built like a linebacker yet has incredible skill and touch) That is the ideal type player, not the tiny guy with great skill. I agree Messi and Barceloa do a great job with little guys but I have seen Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball.

So, I think the little guys have a chance, but do not faiult coaches for giving preference to the big guys. I think sometimes the "he didn't pick me because I am too little" is either an excuse, or actually a very good reason.

If you are talking about Cristiano Ronaldo with Real Madrid you are making our point as he is very, very, skilled on the ball. The size and speed are awesome IF you have the skill on the ball. But he is 6'1" 170 pounds so I wouldn't say he is built like a LB as most of them are about 230#'s or more. Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball? I have watched about 30 Barca games in the last 2 years and yes that happens once in a blue moon but 99% of the time the ball is gone before the defender gets there. There is a reason Spain is the World Champions and Barca owns the Champions League right now.

I'll put it to you this way we, as a country, have gone for bigger, stronger, faster for the last 30 years and where has that gotten us?? "Smash and Chase" might win a ton of games at U12 but when they are 23 they suck. There is one fact that will never, ever, ever, change: The ball moves faster than any player. And that is why a skilled, intelligent player will always be better than a big fast player. Now is it better to have a big, fast, skilled player? Obviously, but bigger and faster should be a secondary trait to Skill and Intelligence. There are way too many big fast kids who can't recv. a ball making it VERY far up the ladder of our youth systems.

I watched the U17 World Cup and I was embarrassed for our country as our fast athletes still hadn't mastered basic skills. An example, at the U17 World Cup we had a very fast winger and forward who kept zooming down the right side, these two guys could beat their man 90% of the time just because of their athleticism. The problem was when the pass came their first touch was so terrible that they had to take an extra touch almost every time to settle the ball and then continue their run but by the time they did this the defense had caught up to them. All that speed was for nothing because of a terrible first touch. Hell it goes higher up the ladder than U17. In the Confederations Cup Demarcus Beasley couldn't recv. a perfect pass that basically went through his legs and it led to a breakaway goal. I promise you the only reason he made it that far was because each coach he had kept him on the team and started him because they thought he was fast. I could go on and on but you get the point. I am all for us using Big, Strong, Fast players but they have to have ball skills first or that speed can often be useless.
FGFF, marry me!

by Guest 9/1/2011, 10:30 am

FGFF wrote:
Running wrote:
FGFF wrote:
Running wrote:
omega striker wrote:
finish1 wrote:Read that article in the DMN last year just before the WC. Great story and very true. America has a twisted fascination with big, fast players, which is why we are not competitive beyond our borders.

Here is a nice goal by El Gringo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpZYvBG-8I

you would have better luck bashing your head thru a brickwall here in NTX

I would hate to be the contrarian here, but I don't see anything wrong with having a preference for bigger, faster, stronger players. This does not bode well for my kids as they are on the smaller side, but do all things being equal, if I were a coach, I would pick the bigger kid over the smaller kid any day. I have seen too many games where great, skilled, little players get run off the ball by a bigger kid with more speed. Additionally, who is to say the bigger kid will not develop skills just as good as the little guy as he ages. Unfortunately, size and speed are too things you can't train but everyone can get better skills.

Examples of bigger players are Ronaldo (Real Madrid, 6-3 built like a linebacker yet has incredible skill and touch) That is the ideal type player, not the tiny guy with great skill. I agree Messi and Barceloa do a great job with little guys but I have seen Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball.

So, I think the little guys have a chance, but do not faiult coaches for giving preference to the big guys. I think sometimes the "he didn't pick me because I am too little" is either an excuse, or actually a very good reason.

If you are talking about Cristiano Ronaldo with Real Madrid you are making our point as he is very, very, skilled on the ball. The size and speed are awesome IF you have the skill on the ball. But he is 6'1" 170 pounds so I wouldn't say he is built like a LB as most of them are about 230#'s or more. Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball? I have watched about 30 Barca games in the last 2 years and yes that happens once in a blue moon but 99% of the time the ball is gone before the defender gets there. There is a reason Spain is the World Champions and Barca owns the Champions League right now.

I'll put it to you this way we, as a country, have gone for bigger, stronger, faster for the last 30 years and where has that gotten us?? "Smash and Chase" might win a ton of games at U12 but when they are 23 they suck. There is one fact that will never, ever, ever, change: The ball moves faster than any player. And that is why a skilled, intelligent player will always be better than a big fast player. Now is it better to have a big, fast, skilled player? Obviously, but bigger and faster should be a secondary trait to Skill and Intelligence. There are way too many big fast kids who can't recv. a ball making it VERY far up the ladder of our youth systems.

I watched the U17 World Cup and I was embarrassed for our country as our fast athletes still hadn't mastered basic skills. An example, at the U17 World Cup we had a very fast winger and forward who kept zooming down the right side, these two guys could beat their man 90% of the time just because of their athleticism. The problem was when the pass came their first touch was so terrible that they had to take an extra touch almost every time to settle the ball and then continue their run but by the time they did this the defense had caught up to them. All that speed was for nothing because of a terrible first touch. Hell it goes higher up the ladder than U17. In the Confederations Cup Demarcus Beasley couldn't recv. a perfect pass that basically went through his legs and it led to a breakaway goal. I promise you the only reason he made it that far was because each coach he had kept him on the team and started him because they thought he was fast. I could go on and on but you get the point. I am all for us using Big, Strong, Fast players but they have to have ball skills first or that speed can often be useless.

I see what you are saying and big kids with bricks for feet won't work. But, I think the problem is we do not demand the bigger players develop that better touch. It can be done, because you see it done in players like Ronaldo, even Crouch with Tottenham at 6-5 has decent touch. As I said earlier, all things being equal, I will take the larger kid because the size is an advantage. For headers in the box, for moving people off the ball etc.

We may allow the bigger kids to get away with not learning the touch in the USA but if that changes, we could have bigger, faster and skilled kids. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Look at most EPL Rosters and you will some large players. Vidic, John Terry, Emmanuel Adaboyur, Dawson, Lescott, Richards, all very big physical guys. There are tons in the league.

My mistake on Ronaldo, his Wikipedia page (alway reliable) says he is 6'1.

Good post. I agree with you. The problem is those big, fast kids are allowed to make the team, start and play lots of minutes because of one reason only and unfortunately we all know what it is.

Absolutely agree. Size at a young age will get you a starting job with tons of playing time (U7-U13 or so) You are not required to develop your skill because the coach gets his wins, the team is lauded with praise and after the kids get older and move on to other sports, the coach starts over with a younger academy team.

Don't get me started on the kids that are slow, no skill, not idea how to pass but can hit the ball a mile. At U8 they are the prize possessions because they can score from outside the box. Looking forward to the day when a big foot does not matter. When is that by the way?

by my2cents 9/1/2011, 2:05 pm

It is when you get a good coach. My sons coach started day 1 at U11 with first touch ,first touch, first touch and don't rely on your size and speed.

by go99 9/1/2011, 2:28 pm

How about something revolutionary here, instead of looking at BFS we start to look at if the kids has the natural talents required or not. It's not about size or lack of it's about talent and the US will not win at the top levels until they realize this. Search for the true talent and develop it. You cannot create it, you can't buy it from skills session, there is no class for it in the Texans school. The Crouch comment was so funny because he has been a flop. Couldn't stay with the England team, Traded because the much smaller players kept him from seeing the field. Ronaldo is such a success not because he is big and fast but because he is a wizard with the ball and always has been. No special training, skills session, special colored shoes, but just talent. Then that was paired with a strong desire and incredible work ethic. And techinically the shorter player (Messi is by no means skinny) does have an advantadge. He is closer to the ball and that make it easier to control. It's the same for basketball. The shorter player has an advantadge for dribbling. Unfortunately in Basketball he has to bring the ball up to 10 ft and then has a huge disadvantadge. In soccer he never loses that advantadge. But this advantadge also does not overcome talent. BFS is not the answer. The US team is BFS than every team they play in the America's but yet we still lose. It's time to look for a "Better" player and forget about his size.

by go99 9/1/2011, 2:45 pm

ODP suffers because it uses the same poor coaches from select soccer. BB has enjoyed the ODP but has not learned a single thing there. The US national team needs to start with an identity or style of play and get it's own system of coaches to push it down thru the youth ranks. They also need a system of scouts to identify future talent. Leave the clubs out of it. Leave the coaches out of it. Cancel the regional camps, get rid of the ODP staff and coaches and start over. Here is my idea:
Use national scouts to identify kids during U11, and go beyond just select. At the end of U11 invite kids that posses the natural talents and base skills that you feel suit whatever national team identity you decide. Make a State training pool to develop and work the skills. No games, just training with actual teaching. The pool needs to be fluid with kids coming in and also being dropped. Obviously the pool will shrink over the years as kids potential starts to become more clear. at about 14 start to form teams regionally to play tournaments during the breaks. At 16/17 all kids in the program should be part of the national team roster with them all competing for spots on the gameday roster.

by finish1 9/1/2011, 3:24 pm

I agree with you in concept, GO.

As US soccer evolves, the development responsibility will be borne by the MLS franchise. They will scout local associtaions from the early ages to secure natural talent and move them through the selection process as they mature. FCD has already started down that path with the residency program. In time, the entire landscape will change. Just not while our kids are playing.

by Ibystander 9/1/2011, 5:16 pm

finish1 wrote:FCD has already started down that path with the residency program. In time, the entire landscape will change. Just not while our kids are playing.

How is the FCD residency program different from The Texans? I am looking for a program where I can just drop my kid off on Monday, pick him up on Friday. Is anything like that in the works?

by go99 9/1/2011, 5:40 pm

completely different programs. Anybody with the cash to pay for it can join the Texans program. Don't even need to be a texan.

by pass2space 9/1/2011, 11:34 pm

omega striker wrote:
FGFF wrote:
Running wrote:
omega striker wrote:
finish1 wrote:Read that article in the DMN last year just before the WC. Great story and very true. America has a twisted fascination with big, fast players, which is why we are not competitive beyond our borders.

Here is a nice goal by El Gringo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpZYvBG-8I

you would have better luck bashing your head thru a brickwall here in NTX

I would hate to be the contrarian here, but I don't see anything wrong with having a preference for bigger, faster, stronger players. This does not bode well for my kids as they are on the smaller side, but do all things being equal, if I were a coach, I would pick the bigger kid over the smaller kid any day. I have seen too many games where great, skilled, little players get run off the ball by a bigger kid with more speed. Additionally, who is to say the bigger kid will not develop skills just as good as the little guy as he ages. Unfortunately, size and speed are too things you can't train but everyone can get better skills.

Examples of bigger players are Ronaldo (Real Madrid, 6-3 built like a linebacker yet has incredible skill and touch) That is the ideal type player, not the tiny guy with great skill. I agree Messi and Barceloa do a great job with little guys but I have seen Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball.

So, I think the little guys have a chance, but do not faiult coaches for giving preference to the big guys. I think sometimes the "he didn't pick me because I am too little" is either an excuse, or actually a very good reason.

If you are talking about Cristiano Ronaldo with Real Madrid you are making our point as he is very, very, skilled on the ball. The size and speed are awesome IF you have the skill on the ball. But he is 6'1" 170 pounds so I wouldn't say he is built like a LB as most of them are about 230#'s or more. Iniesta, Xavi and Messi get pushed off the ball? I have watched about 30 Barca games in the last 2 years and yes that happens once in a blue moon but 99% of the time the ball is gone before the defender gets there. There is a reason Spain is the World Champions and Barca owns the Champions League right now.

I'll put it to you this way we, as a country, have gone for bigger, stronger, faster for the last 30 years and where has that gotten us?? "Smash and Chase" might win a ton of games at U12 but when they are 23 they suck. There is one fact that will never, ever, ever, change: The ball moves faster than any player. And that is why a skilled, intelligent player will always be better than a big fast player. Now is it better to have a big, fast, skilled player? Obviously, but bigger and faster should be a secondary trait to Skill and Intelligence. There are way too many big fast kids who can't recv. a ball making it VERY far up the ladder of our youth systems.

I watched the U17 World Cup and I was embarrassed for our country as our fast athletes still hadn't mastered basic skills. An example, at the U17 World Cup we had a very fast winger and forward who kept zooming down the right side, these two guys could beat their man 90% of the time just because of their athleticism. The problem was when the pass came their first touch was so terrible that they had to take an extra touch almost every time to settle the ball and then continue their run but by the time they did this the defense had caught up to them. All that speed was for nothing because of a terrible first touch. Hell it goes higher up the ladder than U17. In the Confederations Cup Demarcus Beasley couldn't recv. a perfect pass that basically went through his legs and it led to a breakaway goal. I promise you the only reason he made it that far was because each coach he had kept him on the team and started him because they thought he was fast. I could go on and on but you get the point. I am all for us using Big, Strong, Fast players but they have to have ball skills first or that speed can often be useless.
well said sir!

ODP Regional Camp Experience - Page 4 Like

by Soccerinsanity 9/2/2011, 12:14 am

FCD will need to give up the politics before they will achieve the goal. Won't work if the coaches always pick the kid that they taught when the player was 10, and momma is either hot or paying extra, for their teams. Might be judging talent, but is it the kid's talent? affraid

by pass2space 9/2/2011, 1:39 am

[excerpt] Torres was welcomed to the Olympic Development Program but was never deemed physical enough to make the 18-player regional team that traveled around the country and world. "We pushed him, but the coaches never selected him," said Gary Williamson, director of coaching and player development for North Texas Soccer. He described Torres as "a late developer ... very technical ... a natural" and "always light."[excerpt]

With Klinsmann leaning toward a national style of play that is more in line with Torres', hopefully it will be reflected locally with Gary Williamson's staff of ODP coaches.

If not, the path Torres took will occur more frequently: http://bit.ly/olk9vW

by finish1 9/2/2011, 7:30 am

P2P, the most important thing for US soccer is playing a better game tactically with shape around the ball and skilled movement.

by clueless 9/2/2011, 8:56 am

pass2space wrote:[excerpt] Torres was welcomed to the Olympic Development Program but was never deemed physical enough to make the 18-player regional team that traveled around the country and world. "We pushed him, but the coaches never selected him," said Gary Williamson, director of coaching and player development for North Texas Soccer. He described Torres as "a late developer ... very technical ... a natural" and "always light."[excerpt]

With Klinsmann leaning toward a national style of play that is more in line with Torres', hopefully it will be reflected locally with Gary Williamson's staff of ODP coaches.

If not, the path Torres took will occur more frequently: http://bit.ly/olk9vW

"Late Developer" means "we missed him". The opposite of a Ryan Leaf selection...more like Brett Farve without the texting.

I think the FCD coaches probably do a decent job picking the resident athletes, I would just question that the pool from which they are picking isn't up to snuff. The model doesn't work if you only pick one or two players, which is exactly how ODP at the older ages should be from a ratio perspective.

by FlatBack4 9/2/2011, 10:35 am

You actually believe they're going to pick national team players from the national ODP list?

If that's not likely enough for you, do you believe they're actually going to pick North Texas players from the North Texas ODP list?

by omega striker 9/2/2011, 11:46 am

Soccerinsanity wrote:FCD will need to give up the politics before they will achieve the goal. Won't work if the coaches always pick the kid that they taught when the player was 10, and momma is either hot or paying extra, for their teams. Might be judging talent, but is it the kid's talent?

I thought hot soccer moms was part of it all? tongue

and of course paying extra s a given! Mad

by Soccerinsanity 9/2/2011, 2:55 pm

Omega, Are you sending your hot wife out there with a $100 in hand??? Very Happy

by omega striker 9/2/2011, 7:33 pm

Soccerinsanity wrote:Omega, Are you sending your hot wife out there with a $100 in hand???

LOL shes too hot for the coach too handle but we are dead broke so i guess i'm sh$t out of luck! I'm sure if your hotty goes up to him then he will hand her money! lol!

by Soccerinsanity 9/2/2011, 10:37 pm

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